Brendan Rodgers

G-Dragon · Aug 30, 2015

Rodgers hasn't been great but lets be honest....likes of Van Gaal or Wenger don't have a chance of winning the League or CL any time soon either. Both are battling for 4th place too. One has spent a lot, and the other has had forever to "build."

SALTIRE · Aug 30, 2015

Leewilson said:
It's good business in terms of what you'd consider them to be valued after their failings at Liverpool. But yes, without doubt Rodgers biggest weakness was in the transfer market last year.

I do disagree a bit with the opening paragraph. They're certainly not back to where they started. They had a horrible squad under Hodgson/King Kenny. He rejuvenated that. He has bought well this summer. Milner is a very clever signing. Clyne improves dramatically on Johnson. Benteke is a figurehead up top which was much needed and he will get goals. Gomez looks to be an excellent piece of business. Firmino has the potential to be a real asset also.

As for the defence, Gomez and Clyne look an upgrade defensively on Moreno and Johnson/Manquillo so I'd argue he is fixing the full back areas. Centre back is still an issue but let's wait and see if Lovren improves. Skrtel has had a good start to the season and I do rate Sakho despite him looking clumsy as fuck.

You also make it sound like losing Suarez was Rodgers fault? There wasn't much that could be done after the World Cup really. Rodgers did well to keep him for that season they went for the title really. Sterling simply left for a club in a loftier position at present to Liverpool.

Ultimately their progression under Rodgers has been two steps forward with last season being a step back. I do think that this season will see them slowly start to push forward again. They are nowhere near as in a bad position as they were when Rodgers first took over. That was a club who didn't have a prayer of a top four finish. This is currently a club that has a realistic ambition of that.

Good summation Lee, I agree completely.

Stevencc · Aug 30, 2015

smat said:
They're back where they started. They've spent £300m to be not in the Champions League, having won no trophies and lost two of their best players, failed to fix a defence which has been porous since Rodgers took over, and all he's done to the deadwood is to make it more expensive (some of which is out on loan and some of which is still making a spectacle of itself in central defence). They had one giddy season but ultimately they've got nowhere under him.

He's up against it with the other teams up there, but let's not overstate his accomplishments. They are negligible.

Edit: also praising him for "good business" in getting £12m for Aspas, Coates and Lambert he spent £12m on two of them to do absolutely fuck all except depreciate in value. Good business

Absolutely fantastic summation Smat. Spot on. Keep up the good work, friend.

Abertawe · Aug 30, 2015

Can't agree with Lee. They haven't got a prayer of achieving 4th this season.

TheMinsterman · Aug 30, 2015

Nilsson said:
That season was a blip but in general I think it's fair to say they're a team on the up, they're able to attract a better quality of player and are very much seen as a team that could disrupt the top 7. Considering where they've came from, that's impressive.

Under Rodgers Liverpool are still finding it hard to keep hold of their best talent and have failed to win anything. The season in which they finished 2nd was impressive but ultimately ended in failure, fair enough they qualified for the CL from it but they could only embarrass themselves in that, losing out to Basel in the group stages. Without having the best player in the league I can't see Rodgers getting them as high as 2nd again, they just seem like a team going nowhere under Brendan.

Strange, that sounds awfully familiar...

slaphead · Aug 30, 2015

G-Dragon said:
Rodgers hasn't been great but lets be honest....likes of Van Gaal or Wenger don't have a chance of winning the League or CL any time soon either. Both are battling for 4th place too. One has spent a lot, and the other has had forever to "build."

I'm fairly certain of one thing, Van Gaal will win United's 14th PL title before Liverpool win their first.

SALTIRE · Aug 30, 2015

slaphead said:
I'm fairly certain of one thing, Van Gaal will win United's 14th PL title before Liverpool win their first.

Neither side will win the PL for a long long time mate

slaphead · Aug 30, 2015

SALTIRE said:
Neither side will win the PL for a long long time mate

Where did I say they would.....?

SALTIRE · Aug 30, 2015

slaphead said:
Where did I say they would.....?

My point is that both are as bad as each other and the league is going to be dominated by Chelsea, City and Arsenal if they ever get their act together, for the next decade at least.

slaphead · Aug 30, 2015

Maybe City, Chelsea have issues and Arsenal will never get their act together while Wenger is still there. Still think in the next few years United will become a credible threat again, whether Van Gaal is the man to lead it remains to be seen. Maybe they should go after Gary Monk....

Stevencc · Aug 30, 2015

SALTIRE said:
My point is that both are as bad as each other and the league is going to be dominated by Chelsea, City and Arsenal if they ever get their act together, for the next decade at least.

You've negated your own point by falling for the media rubbish about Arsenal being anywhere near contenders.

smat · Aug 30, 2015

Leewilson said:
They're certainly not back to where they started. They had a horrible squad under Hodgson/King Kenny. He rejuvenated that.

Rodgers has also had the benefit of two and a half more seasons than Dalglish did to shape the squad from the Gillett/Hicks detritus, plus an awful lot more money. Their improvement is not worth the sums he has been allowed to invest. 8th to 6th, ten more points, no trophies. Their squad looks better now, but new sponsorship and TV deals means everyone else has improved too. If you look at Chelsea, Arsenal, City's squads from that season, how much credit do their managers get and how much is just down to immense spending power?

Leewilson said:
He has bought well this summer. Milner is a very clever signing. Clyne improves dramatically on Johnson. Benteke is a figurehead up top which was much needed and he will get goals. Gomez looks to be an excellent piece of business. Firmino has the potential to be a real asset also.

I think Benteke is a good player but a poor signing. He doesn't suit any of Rodgers' playing styles. Not 'death by football' of his early days, and not the pressing style with Suarez and Sturridge. Different players, but it's only last season we saw Lambert and Balotelli lumbering around up front, utterly disconnected from the rest of their team.

Anyway, not that this upcoming season can be taken into account when considering whether Liverpool are any better or worse off than when Rodgers was appointed.

Leewilson said:
As for the defence, Gomez and Clyne look an upgrade defensively on Moreno and Johnson/Manquillo so I'd argue he is fixing the full back areas. Centre back is still an issue but let's wait and see if Lovren improves. Skrtel has had a good start to the season and I do rate Sakho despite him looking clumsy as fuck.

Liverpool conceded 43 in Rodgers' first season, 50 in his second, and 48 in his third. I don't think he knows how to fix it.

Leewilson said:
Ultimately their progression under Rodgers has been two steps forward with last season being a step back. I do think that this season will see them slowly start to push forward again. They are nowhere near as in a bad position as they were when Rodgers first took over. That was a club who didn't have a prayer of a top four finish. This is currently a club that has a realistic ambition of that.

Baby steps. Progress, if it's been made, can be measured in inches. A team who has spent as much as Liverpool under Rodgers should have achieved so much more by now.

By the way, the Liverpool who 'didn't have a prayer' of finishing fourth were well in the race for a Champions League in 2011-12, before their league campaign collapsed late on. Bit like last season under Rodgers (except they won a trophy).

Letsby Avenue · Aug 30, 2015

What do the Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal managers, all have in common ?
A total lack of understanding Brit humour and irony.
They all treat the mischievious journo questions, as if they are serious ~ some turn up with dossiers and handouts at pressers to explain ~ some choose to call other managers 'voyeurs' but without the humour, and it leaves a sour taste.Some steadfastly claim they never saw anything.
The Man City manager, whilst missing the journo's digs and jokes, walks as straight a line as Sir Alf Ramsay ~ who never realised his job was in question.He misses on purpose or language, many innuendos and snide questions from journos.

Brendan is different to those 4 managers, imo.

He talks, at some point in pressers, about himself. His footie philosophy etc.

Earlier in this thread someone compared him to David Brent ~~~ David Moyes would be closer.
I reckon Brendan's wet dream is a 4-6-0 formation, as Moyes often played.
He played Ballotelli alone up front, Lambert as well ....now Benteke...as an occupier of defenders, whilst the real goalhunters from midfield poured through.
It don't work. Suarez isn't there anymore, and Sturridge isn't either. So Brendan's Plan B/C etc ~ imo ~ is to pretend they are and just have a token hoof-receiver.

Liverpool, imo, deserve a greater intellect than Brendan.

He has the players, he just doesn't seem to have the acumen to utilise them.

:conf:

JimJams · Aug 30, 2015

He has the players to do what?

Pagnell · Aug 30, 2015

As he's predictably being hit over the head with this particular stick, I feel the need to point out that people seem to be forgetting (deliberately in some cases no doubt) that Rodgers has only spent near £300m if the loss of quality like Suarez and Sterling is ignored. His net spend is actually closer to £140m. Still not brilliant by any stretch but lets not forget a certain amount of money needs to be spent in this league just to stand still, especially with the ageing squad he inherited from Dalglish. Look at the starting lineup against Arsenal, 8 of the 11 players were Rodgers buys.

I reckon he'll get until the end of the season regardless of what happens. Well, short of something like a bottom half finish looking likely, which isn't going to happen. Improvements are needed though or I can see Henry pulling the plug next summer bringing the Rodgers experiment to an end.

Abertawe · Aug 30, 2015

Abstaining from the poll Paggy?

Pagnell · Aug 30, 2015

Nope. He's clearly not a fraud, what a stupid word to use. However, is he the right man for Liverpool long term, which was the original plan for him? Perhaps not. I haven't given up on him yet though.

SALTIRE · Aug 30, 2015

Stevencc said:
You've negated your own point by falling for the media rubbish about Arsenal being anywhere near contenders.

I did mention the caveat 'if they get their act together' . They are a holding mid and possibly a striker away from it, closer than they have been for over a decade.

Stevencc · Aug 31, 2015

SALTIRE said:
I did mention the caveat 'if they get their act together' . They are a holding mid and possibly a striker away from it, closer than they have been for over a decade.

They are as far away as ever because they still have Wenger in charge.

thespus · Aug 31, 2015

Stevencc said:
They are as far away as ever because they still have Wenger in charge.

Eh we have more points at this stage than last season and I think we're improved from last. I'd have a fiver that we finish with more points than last. We're nothing great, but we're not as far away as ever. Lead the league in chances created and shots. We need a striker, but our conversion rate will progress to the mean and we won't have such a futile return. Plus we probably would be in the same position as Liverpool had Wenger left us is the austerity years.

TFF fiver on league finish between Arsenal and Manchester United?

Red · Aug 31, 2015

slaphead said:
Maybe City, Chelsea have issues and Arsenal will never get their act together while Wenger is still there. Still think in the next few years United will become a credible threat again, whether Van Gaal is the man to lead it remains to be seen. Maybe they should go after Gary Monk....

Not sure LVG will be around in a few years. He's promised his wife he'll be retiring in 3yrs so he can spend more time with his family.

JimJams · Aug 31, 2015

thespus said:
Lead the league in chances created and shots.

Well that's what matters!
You do like these sorts of stats but they don't really mean an awful lot at the end of the day. If a team has 15 shots from 30 yards and they all roll into the keepers arms yet another side has 2 shots with one hitting the post and the other being a goal it doesn't mean that when the side hitting the no hopers get their act together that they're then going to score 5 of their speculative efforts. That's not necessarily indicative of how Arsenal are playing it, just about using shots on target stats.
Your build up play is too slow and allows defenders to get back and sit deep and when they do that you generally have one guy in the box marked by at least 2 defenders while the rest of your team try to play one-twos to try to work it into the box. Sometimes it works, but often it'll come unstuck and has at times this season. There's hardly ever any whipped crosses in, and as said when there are there's only usually one guy to attack them. It's understandable to a degree why you don't cross the ball much, as crosses often result in turnover of the ball, but sometimes it's good to give the opposition defence something else to think about, but it seems that Arsenal want to do things the Barca way and keep the ball on the floor with short passing and movement just about all the time.

Stevencc · Aug 31, 2015

thespus said:
Eh we have more points at this stage than last season and I think we're improved from last. I'd have a fiver that we finish with more points than last. We're nothing great, but we're not as far away as ever. Lead the league in chances created and shots. We need a striker, but our conversion rate will progress to the mean and we won't have such a futile return. Plus we probably would be in the same position as Liverpool had Wenger left us is the austerity years.

TFF fiver on league finish between Arsenal and Manchester United?

All I'm saying is that with Wenger in charge you've got no chance of winning the league. I think the best you can hope for again is third, with City and Chelsea ahead. Chelsea have started awfully but with Jose in charge you know that won't last and City have spent ridiculous amounts of money to build a formidable squad. Wenger can't compete with either.

I won't take you up on that bet because I think you've got a very good chance of ending up third, ahead of us in fourth - but with neither of us anywhere near realistically winning the title.

johnnytodd · Aug 31, 2015

Just checked and he's still manager :bdick:

thespus · Aug 31, 2015

JimJams said:
Well that's what matters!
You do like these sorts of stats but they don't really mean an awful lot at the end of the day. If a team has 15 shots from 30 yards and they all roll into the keepers arms yet another side has 2 shots with one hitting the post and the other being a goal it doesn't mean that when the side hitting the no hopers get their act together that they're then going to score 5 of their speculative efforts. That's not necessarily indicative of how Arsenal are playing it, just about using shots on target stats.
.

Chances created + shot suppression (i.e., positive shot differential) is the biggest indicator whether performances are sustainable and if a side can expect better results more often than not with that positive differential. It's more nuanced in ice hockey (see Corsi and Fenwick) and quantifying a fluid sport will always be imperfect, but it is more important than your anecdotal evidence suggests and is an underlying indication of future trends. Arsenal's season split last season (pre/post Coq) is good evidence of this - results are better when your positive shot differential is higher. Can you have a +12 and still lose a match? Of course. But more often than not, the side that is +12 will win. Hence my belief that Arsenal's results will trend upwards - 4th fewest shots against, most interceptions, and the most chances created. These are good signs - we haven't played near our best, but events like Ramsey's disallowed goal and Walcott's fluffed open net tend to balance out over a larger sample size. It's not outlandish to hypothesize we will score more than .75 goals per game - even without a welcome striker signing.

As for your second paragraph, I totally agree. For the technical superiority of our players in tight spaces, we play much too slow. Unfortunately, I think this something that won't improve until one of Cazorla/Ramsey is dropped and Oxlade-Chamberlain plays on RW. Giroud, whom we agree gets too much flack, doesn't have the acceleration to turn a defender, which significantly slows attacks down, too.

Edit - A good—and oddly relevant—article written by someone more skilled than myself: http://statsbomb.com/2015/08/leave-...al-liverpool-and-newcastle-epl-stat-round-up/

SALTIRE · Aug 31, 2015

Stevencc said:
ahead of us in fourth

Still think you'll get CL football this year with the man that got you there on his way now to the biggest side in the world? :shut:

Stevencc · Aug 31, 2015

SALTIRE said:
Still think you'll get CL football this year with the man that got you there on his way now to the biggest side in the world?

Van Gaal is off to Real is he?

We did it last season and Liverpool, the only viable threat, are just as shit as they were before (if not worse) so yes - fourth is the lowest we could possibly finish.

SALTIRE · Aug 31, 2015

Stevencc said:
Van Gaal is off to Real is he?

We did it last season and Liverpool, the only viable threat, are just as shit as they were before so yes - fourth is the lowest we could possibly finish.

We'll see

ColB · Sep 1, 2015

I gave Rodgers the benefit of the doubt after last season but he really is in last chance saloon. I think he has a tendency to over complicate everything at times, whilst we all know that his record in the transfer market two or three players aside is absolutely shocking. With Klopp currently being out of work now would be a good time to go on the charm offensive and inject new life and ideas into the club.

Tesl · Sep 1, 2015

I think the current Liverpool side is terrible, and I don't say that just because they got beat by West Ham the other day (I'm pretty sure I said this already somewhere before).

No creativity, no penetration, and poor defensively. I don't think United look good either (at least, they aren't challenging for the title this year) and think they will come a good 10 points ahead of Liverpool. They will beat Liverpool next week too.

The side for me is probably worse than before Rodgers took over. It's probably why Coutinho is so overrated now - because he's being compared to the dross around him and not to the top sides.

Hopefully this will be Rodger's last year, and I think it probably will be.

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Brendan Rodgers

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