We want our country back.

Can't believe I'm actually engaging with someone who things the EDL just really care about gay-rights...

Ian_Wrexham said:

Depends who's doing it. A Muslim LGBT group doing it clearly wouldn't be racist. A multi-ethnic group that regularly protested other institutions that gave platforms to homophobes, both faith-based and secular, would get a pass too.

A far-right street movement who's MO is to run up and down the street chanting "Who the fuck is Allah" at non-white people, whose concern for gay rights is such that they regularly host known homophobes picketing a mosque because it gives a platform for bigots? Nah, that's dodgy as fuck.

Click to expand...

The point of contention was not the EDL's motive for attacking Islamic homophobia (I've already said three times now that it is questionable), it was progressives' motives for tolerating it.

It's not a "liberal form of attack". It's pink-washing. Adopting a particular stance as a shield to deflect criticism from their own racist, fascist actions.

Click to expand...

To attack Islam for it's illiberality is a liberal attack. Whether that's based on true liberal convictions no doubt varies and is unknowable in any case. I'm not going to argue what neither of us can know and I have no interest in defending the EDL, but I will take issue with silly claims of "fascism".

And I don't think "antifa" (not actually antifa) protest the conservatives on the basis of illiberality. It's that they're passing laws that literally kill people. I protest the things that hurt me, my friends and my community. It would be weird for me to go and protest homophobia at a mosque unless a muslim friend/comrade asked me to.

Click to expand...

Finally you have answered the question then. You're throwing them to the wolves because it would be "weird" not to. Thank you. How a hate-preaching Mosque harms the community any less than hate-preaching right wingers do though I'm not quite sure.

Christianity/Judaism preaches death upon not just gays, but upon wearers of clothes woven from more than one fabric. The fact that we don't stand outside Primark with bags of rocks is that even the most devout contextualise scripture. Pretending that homophobia is enshrined within Islam any more than stoning beard-trimmers is enshrined within Christianity does fundamentalist, homophobic mullahs' work for them and makes it that much harder for LGBT Muslims to juggle both their faith/ethno-religious identity and their sexuality.

Click to expand...

Belief is abstract, scripture is not. It's impossible to deny that homophobia is enshrined in Islam or Christianity because these are revealed-truth ideologies with unchanging source material. It's absurd to assume that a proportion of believers won't always interpret them literally as they have always done, and by extension they will always be a net-contributor to discrimination, and it's profoundly theologically ignorant to expect the three different ideologies to express themselves in the same way also.

The reason that Christians and Jews have had such success in reforming and modernizing themselves is that their scripture is packed with loopholes that allow for huge swathes of text to be ignored. A Christian for example can happily ignore everything in the Old Testament because those were the old laws and Jesus brought in the new, or even go so far as to dismiss all but the words of Jesus entirely, not to mention things like "Render unto Caesar..." which lays the groundwork for secularism.

Islam doesn't have that, and worse, it has concepts like Jihad that make it extremely difficult to quarantine 'British Islam' from what is going on in the rest of the Islamic world. None of these belief systems are any more worthy of preservation than Esoteric National Socialism or Scientology, of which they are morally on a par with at best. We'd all be much better off if the Bible and the Qur'an especially both went the way of the Amduat.

If you think that Britain First doesn't hold fascist ideologies then you've never read, or been banned from posting on their Facebook page.

They preach about freedom of speech yet ban you the moment you call them out or disagree with them. Bizarre.

If you think that a peanut is a nut then you've never watched all of QI, because it is actually a legume.

Dave-Vale said:

If you think that Britain First doesn't hold fascist ideologies then you've never read, or been banned from posting on their Facebook page.

They preach about freedom of speech yet ban you the moment you call them out or disagree with them. Bizarre.

Click to expand...

It's the same people involved in bf and the edl that were involved in nf/ combat 18 /bnp especially in terms of organisation and fundraising. They rename themselves and try to present themselves as a mainstream, reasonable party but it's the same old racist and fascist rats involved. Just watching the bbc program I spotted Calvert, mcgugan and several others who have been knocking about in the White power movement for donkeys years.

Is the EDL still going? I thought it had been rebranded to BF. It all gets a bit People Front of Judea on the far right & left to be honest.

The East Terrace said:

Is the EDL still going? I thought it had been rebranded to BF. It all gets a bit People Front of Judea on the far right & left to be honest.

Click to expand...

Yeah, still going. they don't get on with bf apparently, something about a code of ethics if you can credit it

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Finally you have answered the question then. You're throwing them to the wolves because it would be "weird" not to. Thank you. How a hate-preaching Mosque harms the community any less than hate-preaching right wingers do though I'm not quite sure.

Click to expand...

What are you on about, that's not what I said. lgbtq muslims aren't your or my rescue project and don't need or want white, straight, men to save them - certainly not by picketing mosques.

Reckon if I announced to any of my queer muslim mates that I was going to picket a mosque to protest homophobia I'm confident they'd tell me that to do that would be really weird and ask me not to do it. Obviously I'd stand with them when they're threatened by bigots (of any stripe) but it's disingenuous to pretend that a white protest outside a mosque is anything other than marginalising and racist.

Aber gas said:

It's the same people involved in bf and the edl that were involved in nf/ combat 18 /bnp especially in terms of organisation and fundraising. They rename themselves and try to present themselves as a mainstream, reasonable party but it's the same old racist and fascist rats involved. Just watching the bbc program I spotted Calvert, mcgugan and several others who have been knocking about in the White power movement for donkeys years.

Click to expand...

The left is the same though, basically A.N.L rebranded and split up into little action groups. Some of those have been at it a few years now as well. They are both the same, 2 groups who want a punch up and too shout each other down. Between them they mass about 1,000 people at a demo and counter demo, at tops. So if both numbers are so pathetic, why do they fear each other so much? Simple answer, they don't, it's just a jolly up for both sides. One right wing demo and counter demo is the same as the next, the people, the songs, the general circus that goes with it. You can understand kids getting their heads turned temporarily but most people grow out of it.

The East Terrace said:

The left is the same though, basically A.N.L rebranded and split up into little action groups. Some of those have been at it a few years now as well. They are both the same, 2 groups who want a punch up and too shout each other down. Between them they mass about 1,000 people at a demo and counter demo, at tops. So if both numbers are so pathetic, why do they fear each other so much? Simple answer, they don't, it's just a jolly up for both sides. One right wing demo and counter demo is the same as the next, the people, the songs, the general circus that goes with it. You can understand kids getting their heads turned temporarily but most people grow out of it.

Click to expand...

Well obviously not me. I'm 35 and still go to counter demos, not as much as I used to due to family and work commitments. I don't know where you are getting your numbers from but there are regularly,significantly more than 1000 people at counter demos. You're also generalising about people's motives, it's not a jolly up, not for me at any rate.

The demo shown in Rottherham was sparsely attended by both. The EDL rally in Stevenage 2 years ago could have been housed in the local theatre there were so few people there from either side. Welll under 1000 again, unless both sides are counting the Police among their numbers? Thankfully they were turned down when they asked to come back, don't what reason was given, probably that we have more than enough twats in Stevenage already thanks. The jolly up is quoting mates of my older brother, late 40's early 50's who have been on both sides on the barriers and they are simply looking back at what they really see it as. Few beers on the way, shout, maybe a fight with other lot or Police, few more beers, then home. In there somewhere are some people who do have genuine concerns but voicing them in this way just reduces their concerns to nothing more than noise. They bring towns to a standstill and for what? Peaceful protest? The songs, the signs and the little hit squads in both camps suggest that some do not have that intention and in all the years of NF Vs ANL, it hasn't changed.

It's a reactive movement, it's about opposition to a provocative marches and demos by racists. I'd be overjoyed if there was no need for a Antifa presence but whilst the far right continue to employ intimidation and a street presence there needs to be a militant reaction. Martin Webster admitted that the national front's decline partly came from the formation of the anl and its more militant off shoots. It limited and still limits fascist bully boy tactics. They can't simply use physical aggression against peaceful protesters because the know there will be a response.

The NF isn't dead, its been rebranded. It would be like rebranding FIFA with Blatter and all his cronies still in charge. They have watered down their message somewhat but the same lies and propaganda are at the heart of it. I think Webster may be breaking his own arm to pat himself on the back there. Biggest problem they have is keeping their loons from kicking the shit out of each other when there is nobody else to fight. Used to see the NF doing that to themselves regulary when they were still running around at Stamford Bridge years ago. Other lot haven't got a firm, oh well here goes........ The real extreme right wingers don't like having their hatred watered down by other slightly less racist people who have learned how to do a tie knot and had elocution lessons. They always self destruct because they are so full of hate. This is why most people ignore them, let them march and wave their flags, all 300 of them, they are a threat to the odd shop window but thats about it. You are simply feeding the trolls, giving the attention seekers what they crave. With or without the ANL, they will never get anywhere as the always implode.

I've seen what racist thugs do when they don't think they will be opposed. They'll attack students/ old folk, basically anyone who can't defend themselves. Red watch hasn't gone away and the fascists are still perfectly capable of violence and physical intimidation. I've seen it recently in Wigan and Dover. Don't let those soppy twats from the edl fool you, there are still some horrible bastards involved.

Fight violence with violence at a peaceful protest? Straight out the Tony Blair Book of Peace that one. You say they started it, they say you started it. Police push you back, they are fascist, right wing sympathisers. Push back the other mob, they are lefties who are protecting terrorists and bombers. Both sides have some right horrible buggers to be fair, had to visit a mate in hospital years ago who battered by a left wing group because he supported Chelsea that made him racist? Good one. Have also seen the right wing in action as I said at the Bridge many a time, neither side has changed over the years, both say they have thousands of supporters yet a few hundred turn up and they just overlook it. A BF post on Facebook gets 2000 likes and we are meant to believe that the country is heading in a right wing direction? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day after all. People can agree with a story (which is usually bullshit anyway) without it making them neo-nazi sympathisers and vice versa.

As opposed to standing there getting battered well yeah you fight back. You've lost me a bit with your stopped clocks but whatever. You clearly have a problem with antifa and tbh you hav'nt got a clue.

I'm confused. Where did my country go? I'm really sorry but I just hadn't noticed.

I say that both sides are as bad as each other but I only have a problem with Antifa?

Really enjoyed the documentary. Was that close to feeling sorry for the same old handful of BF protestors marching around an industrial state on Luton's outskirts to an audience of 700 bobbies and nobody else. Then the same stooges turning up in Rotherham for their next crusade. Doing the same old #notrascist claims about targeting Muslims before telling Asians to "go back to the desert" and accosting the darker taxi drivers. Having a go at restauranteurs for funding zakat with halal meat which allegedly in turn funds terrorism. That's got to be my favourite attempt at crypto-racism of the lot as a weak, pallid vegetarian who eats so much tofu that his estro-tits give him chronic back pain: meat-eaters who suddenly go all ALF over their lamb dhansak and make sure they squint when they walk past the "halal certified" sign in their favourite kebab shop.

Mark my words Britain First are a terrible thing, but in a way it's a relief that they've attracted over 900,000 "likes" to their page and out of this huge far-right support barely reach the double figures in their regional meetings and "Britannia Ball". In that way it's like an attempt to gather Britain's staunch racists into one place and disenfranchise them as much as possible by having the least legitimate and active nationalist party in history, operating on embezzlement and poor-quality image macros only, even less legit than the National Front whose site is still gearing its followers up for the 2015 general election. Sure, Paul and Jayda still turn up to these "hotspots" in person to bully the browns, but when they're being chased out of former pit villages by children I can't help but larf.

That was funny as fuck. What absolute morons they've been showed to be. Shame they got a reaction from the lad in Luton just like they wanted.

If you put that lass in a Sweden kit she'd be the spit of Ibra with that nose!

The East Terrace said:

The left is the same though, basically A.N.L rebranded and split up into little action groups. Some of those have been at it a few years now as well. They are both the same, 2 groups who want a punch up and too shout each other down. Between them they mass about 1,000 people at a demo and counter demo, at tops. So if both numbers are so pathetic, why do they fear each other so much? Simple answer, they don't, it's just a jolly up for both sides. One right wing demo and counter demo is the same as the next, the people, the songs, the general circus that goes with it. You can understand kids getting their heads turned temporarily but most people grow out of it.

Click to expand...

I've been on many anti racism and counter demo's down the years and this picture you're painting of everyone just having an outing where they can have a piss up and a rumble bears no resemblance to what I've experienced on demo's. Yes there's a small minority that might do that but most of are civilised and go because we find racism and fascism unacceptable and with no intention of causing trouble.

Ian_Wrexham said:

What are you on about, that's not what I said. lgbtq muslims aren't your or my rescue project and don't need or want white, straight, men to save them - certainly not by picketing mosques.

Reckon if I announced to any of my queer muslim mates that I was going to picket a mosque to protest homophobia I'm confident they'd tell me that to do that would be really weird and ask me not to do it. Obviously I'd stand with them when they're threatened by bigots (of any stripe) but it's disingenuous to pretend that a white protest outside a mosque is anything other than marginalising and racist.

Click to expand...

If you have mates that identify as Muslim and are openly gay and have the luxury of asking their non-Muslim mates for help with LGTB rights issues then that's brilliant, but you're being willfully naive if you believe that the most vulnerable and closeted Muslims in the most conservative Islamic communities will ever have those opportunities without pressure from the outside.

It's also absurd to think that the fruits of Islamic hate-speech will somehow be contained to the Muslim community. It won't be, a homophobic Muslim will just as likely discriminate against people in your community as his or hers. Leaving these ideas unchallenged sets a dangerous precedent, and offers a shield to fundamentalist Christians of the same ilk that will (quite rightly) scream 'double standard' when they are (quite rightly) taken to task on the issue.

To ignore rampant homophobia in the Muslim community because you weren't asked for help is like turning a blind eye to domestic abuse because the battered housewife kept her mouth shut. It's not a pet project for "straight white men" (why you want to discriminate based on sexual orientation, race or gender I have no idea), it should be a calling for anyone with liberal principles. There's nothing conceivably racist about challenging bad ideas with good ideas, and that's all Islam is, a set of ideas.

Its interesting reading through these posts and how the argument morphs and changes to something not resembling the initial issue.

LGBT+ rights are obviously something I care about and the treatment of LGBT+ people in many countries is appalling. It is a serious issue and something that needs addressing, I'm sure we all agree on that! The LGBT+ rights movement is one of the biggest issues facing our society and other societies. What it is not though is some 'toy', a little point scoring stick to passed around to support an entirely different motive. In my little anecdotal evidence people that I know who are passionately anti-muslim and play the LGBT+ card know very little to nothing of the issues the movement seeks to address, in some circumstances being blatantly transphobic a minute after slamming Muslim approaches to LGBT+ people.

If course I welcome support for the movement but for genuine reasons. Through educated understandings of the issues. And its downright offensive that people degrade such an important issue to give themselves a pat on the back and pretend that they're the social warriors.

There is an issue with certain religions and sects being homophobic. No one will deny that and its one of the big issues I have with religion. EDL marches are not helping fight these issues. Sadly I'm not sure who is fighting them. Fighting hate crime with hate crime is not the answer though, as with so much discrimination its the education on equality and general common decency that needs to improve!

I'm sure plenty of Atheistsare homophobes as well, they just don't have the religion card to hide behind. I agree with you last comment, education is key. There is no reason why cjildren shouldn't learn about each others cultures and religion but people literally freak out about it. "Your teaching my kids to be muslims" No just teaching them about it.

The other BBC3 Documentary about racism was hilarious. 3 People giving out doughnuts and who ever finished last meant that people were most uncomfortable with them? Errr no maybe people just avoid "free" things as they usally come with a catch. I'd have avoided as well, couldn't care less what the person was wearing.

Watched it last night.

Made me laugh when their march ended up being routed through a quiet industrial estate.

Jayda and Paul are closet racists.

"If it walks and talks like a fascist, then it probably is a fascist".

There were moments in there that were strikingly similar to the Westboro Baptist Church, which is terrifying; both groups attempt to hide their hate behind god/Jesus/Christianity.

The East Terrace said:

I'm sure plenty of Atheistsare homophobes as well, they just don't have the religion card to hide behind. I agree with you last comment, education is key. There is no reason why cjildren shouldn't learn about each others cultures and religion but people literally freak out about it. "Your teaching my kids to be muslims" No just teaching them about it.

The other BBC3 Documentary about racism was hilarious. 3 People giving out doughnuts and who ever finished last meant that people were most uncomfortable with them? Errr no maybe people just avoid "free" things as they usally come with a catch. I'd have avoided as well, couldn't care less what the person was wearing.

Click to expand...

I'm sure homophobes come in all different disguises, the only experience I've ever had of homophobic comments be it on the internet or in person though has been supported by religion. One of the most irritating comments which I have heard on many separate occasions from people who are otherwise very kind, nice and reasonable is "we don't hate gay people, god taught us to love everyone and we appreciate that god made everyone differently so I would never exclude a gay person or be prejudiced against them. I would just help them to not act on their feelings." Atheists, in my experience, may use homophobic language but are far more willing to accept LGBT+ plus people and just say "i dont understand it but whatever, do what you want"...which I've just thought is almost the exact opposite to the religious people I'm on about. I know not everyone has the same opinion on me as this but I couldn't care less if 'gay' is used as a piss taking insult, far more bothered that if you talk to that person they don't have homophobic ideas and are just naive in their choice of language. And I'm not pretending it's an easy fix, if it was it would no longer be an issue.

But anyway I'm off on a tangent again.

I also watched that programme and pissed myself at the bit you are on about. And the subconscious test where people generally found people from the same ethnic background as them more trusting...well yes, I dare say that they probably hang out with people from the same ethnic background as them and by default will find those people more trustworthy.