WWE Raw Discussion Thread

I'm all for them pushing a younger fresher roster but they push them for 250 days a year then go back to Undertaker, Brock, annual Wrestlemania match for Triple H with all the legends dominating Wrestlemania season.

Here's some examples....I will never take Bray Wyatt seriously. He is the monster of the show for majority of the time...But he hasn't developed at all. It's still random run ins and targeting certain guys...Not once has he had a title shot or been in a feud that makes sense.

Then come Wrestlemania...He doesn't have his moment. Cena beats him, Undertaker beats him...even at Summerslam...Reigns and Ambrose beat him. They've built him up for past 3 years then shove him into the background.

Barrett...every year he turns up...gets a King of the Ring, gets a long Intercontinental title run, has his Bad News segment....then he gets written off for months. Where is his character going??? The impact he's made with Nexus and other times...they always stop his momentum. The guy is a brilliant main event heel in the making.

Look at Rusev, Cesaro...even The Miz was starting to be a credible main event heel during his title run...Where the hell is Sandow?? What is Randy Orton's role in the business? Big Show? What is he meant to do? Everything is just a mish mash.

Just hope they don't screw Rollins and Owens up.

In terms of the network...I think it is sustainable but only if they keep making new better shows like Beyond the Ring. I personally won't watch Raw on the network because I can forward through the show on my Sky+ and get through it in an hour. Having to watch 3 hours on Tuesday....No chance of that.

Another horrendous week i see for Raw.

firstly that from all accouns it was one of the worst Raws they have ever done, afew reports putting it in among WCW 2000 territory....some even saying WCW 200 was still more entertaining.

on top of that, one of the hours did 3.1 million so Raw is nearly dropping into the less than 3 million territory.

They really need Vince to take a back seat and give it to someone fresh.

They've alienated anyone with A) A brain cell or B) Has reached puberty. It's all a bit lame. The old stars can only come back so many times and bring back fans before that is no longer 'fresh' in the mind. As far as I can see, WWE is fucked unless something drastic happens.

Haven't even bothered this week just read the results, a column I usually read rated is 3.5/10.

Start and end seem okay and the rest seems pretty crap.

Starting to worry what rubbish I will be served up when Raw hits England

Luke said:

Haven't even bothered this week just read the results, a column I usually read rated is 3.5/10.

Start and end seem okay and the rest seems pretty crap.

Starting to worry what rubbish I will be served up when Raw hits England

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Cena won't be there because he's taking time off. I'm going too and the line up looks really bad. They'll be forced to do something big or they'll alienage a lot of the UK fans.

Just finished Raw. I wonder how many times they're going to feed people with momentum to Cena before realising it's harmful. Owens, Rollins, Rusev, Wyatt, Ryback and next New Day, all confined to midcard purgatory.

Rating was shit again, a pathetic 2.4. That's the kind of number Smackdown would do not long ago.

Thought the last segment was good, enjoyed New Day being a bit more truly heelish.

Otherwise nothing special again. Too damn long.

BigDaveCUFC said:

I do like that line its quite true in a way, but its making them money for now......Still think network isn't viable in the long term as I don't see enough paying all the time, but maybe if what Lee said happened and it all went online which is possible then fans might stick with the payments.

I don't know really, I still think NXT is actually part of the problem, not the solution that WWE fans wish for, but wrestling probably needed a set network of levels to develop wrestlers than they played the indies, then went to TNA for first TV learning, then into WWE when developed....now while NXT fills that void of indie to TV it loses all the individuality that is what makes wrestling good, WWE built Rosters have never worked and its key things are when Wrestlers were mixed from WWE built to NWA/WCW/ECW/Japan/England backgrounds.

I do find it sad though that WWe does at least seem to be trying to do the right things at present in pushing a younger, fresher roster but damage seems to eb done elsewhere to not let it work.

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The most entertaining part of the WWE Network is not part of the problem. The main guys that usually go to NXT are guys that have been on the indies for years anyway (Zayn, Owens, Balor) so they haven't learnt their craft in a WWE environment. The WWE Style of wrestling works and is pretty entertaining, but the problem isn't that, it's the creative once they get onto Raw & Smackdown. Everything is over done to the extreme because they have 6-7 hours of tv a week to fill. So a decent Rollins v Ambrose match in 2014 means we get ROLLINS V AMBROSE EVERY WEEK FOR A YEAR. And it stops becoming entertaining. They need to cut down on the hours of Raw (which they won't do) or they need to get rid of Smackdown (which they won't do).
NXT is really really fun to watch and entertaining. Without that and the old WCW Nitros that I've been watching on the Network, I probably would unsubscribe.

See I disagree with that because I find the thing that made WWE good back in 1999-2003 time was you got all manner of different types of wrestlers with vast backgrounds coming in to ply their trade in one group.

Granted I know WCW enabled many of the guys to be in among mainstream before joining WWE but they still on whole came in as characters built elsewhere....they maybe got new names or new backgrounds, but played a similar character...big Show was very similar to Giant, Jericho played his 1997/8 WCW character in WWE, Benoit was the same WCW character, Dudleys was similar to their ECW mold (just not quite as to the wire.

NXT brings people in to adapt them, not to let them bring their character into WWE to add something new and fresh, I can 100% understand the argument on their creative and I do agree its hard with the mass of time they have, but that still doesn't stop half the time the wrestlers making crap interesting, most of the stuff in 1998 was creatively crap but the wrestlers made it at least fun

Plus a bigger and more dangerous problem about NXT is WWE are trying to make the major alternate to WWE be.......WWE.

there is now pretty much nothing else fans can watch if bored with current product, so they either pay WWE for the privilege of an alternative or give up on wrestling.

cycle has began for me, no way out of it, the sport has lost 3-4 million fans over the last 5 years and is still shrinking.

i think with all the resources they have at their disposal, I think it would be silly for WWE not to try and create an alternative to their main product. Watching Raw/Smackdown and NXT, there is a massive, massive difference. Raw & Smackdown are creatively the worst they have been for many, many years. They are in a huge hole.
I look at TNA now and it doesn't appeal to me whatsoever as an alternative. Matt Hardy wins the main belt on the big PPV off of 4 days of build, and then relinquishes the belt a day later on YouTube (probably due to issues in regards to TV tapings). You look at what happened with Hernandez and the LU deal where he illegally appeared on TNA. It's just a mess.
For a lot of people, NXT is probably the only really good, exciting wrestling they're getting at the moment. That includes someone like Kana (or Asuka) who isn't WWE-lite (yet, or maybe will never be). She is something we have never seen in an american Womens Division. Yes, if she moves onto the big 2 shows she'll get spat out and end up being Santino's girlfriend or whatever crap they give her, but for the time being she is absolutely killing it on a show that I can watch on my TV, and I'm loving it. I would rather pay WWE for an alternative than give up on the hobby and entertainment that I have loved since I was 7.

Smackdown worked for a long time because WWE had a surplus of main event talent that they couldn't fit onto one show. That doesn't exist anymore. Along with the extra hour of Raw, Smackdown is another means to over-expose talent just to fill the time.

I won't deny TNA is as such dead, but I am still quite worried as I think Wrestling in general is dying a very slow death.

said it before just 5 years ago 8 million plus people turned on the TV to watch the first MNW between TNA/WWE, TNA getting about 2.5 million and WWE 5.5 million. That is proof the hype was there not very long ago for a spark to get people back interested

now TNA gets 300,000 and WWE gets 3.3 million (if its lucky) and no wrestler is drawing extra fans anymore. I think TNA will be gone by Christmas (should have really killed itself off earlier) and WWE will drop into less than 3 million fans soon.......god knows how it turns the rot about.

my comment on the NXT alternative is still for me valid because the hope that got 8 million back just 5 years ago was a hope of a valid competition......you cannot get valid completion from what is the same organization.

I am just hoping now from TNA's demise when it finally happens the british scene grows via help from Challenge TV.

GFW will likely take over TNA'S spot of WWE lite.

James Storm debuted on NXT I see. Wonder if we may see Roode soon.

It's worth bearing in mind that WWE, despite all its problems and shortcomings, remains profitable. The profit margin for the first quarter of 2015, which included WM, was about 5.5%. That figure dropped to 3.5% for the second quarter, but generally speaking that's still not bad. They lost money in every quarter of 2014, but that was largely due to the sizeable start-up costs for the network. Now the network is fully established and they have over a million subscribers, they're profitable again.

It's kinda obscene that a company can consistently put out a product whose quality ranges from mediocre to abject shit and still make a 3.5 cents profit on every dollar of revenue, but it's entirely possible (demonstrably so) when that company enjoys a virtual monopoly – when it's become so dominant in its market that the only interesting 'rival' to its flagship show is provided by the company's own developmental programme.

Dave is spot on about NXT being part of the problem rather than the solution. The industry needs 2-3 big promotions that are in genuine competition with each other. NXT, which is being booked more and more like a super indie nowadays, is just strengthening WWE's dominance. A pro-wrestling industry in which you can only become a major star if Vince and/or Triple H want you to is not a good one.

They're profitable for now, but advertisers will pay less when it comes to sponsorship if ratings continue to fall and their network will pay less for the rights to broadcast them. Also, house show attendences are falling, supposedly.

It'll be interesting to see how this quarter fairs. It's a long way until 'Mania and some fans have had enough of the same old shit. I'm going to Raw in a few weeks and I can't be arsed watching it anymore.

Christian Slater said:

Smackdown worked for a long time because WWE had a surplus of main event talent that they couldn't fit onto one show.just to fill the time.

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That, and the fact they let Paul Heyman book/write it before getting rid of him when Smackdown got better ratings than RAW.

If you read about WCW CS you will see that a profit can quickly within just a year turn into a massive loss, I think WCW went from making 90 million odd one year to losing 100 million the following year, once things head downwards it can very quickly because there is no alternate option.

infact TNA is a great example of how quickly things can turn badly, again just 5 years ago they were getting 1.5 to 2 million people watching, had a good roster, lots of publicity and were easily the no.2 promotion, afew bad decisions over 2-3 years and now down to non-existent and lucky to get 500,000 viewers.

I think WWE can turn it about, be handy if they wiped the 3rd our, but someone on their roster needs to step up and deliver more, saying that I think WWE should try and grab Bobby Roode and EC3 from TNA, both are excellent in their characters, but they would need to swallow some pride and allow them in with their current characters or similar (I know EC3 may be hard to use)

the biggest thing at moment, regardless of my view on NXT is why are these Nxt Charcaters completely dying a death over time in the main roster?? is it just down to booking, or how they have been built in NXT......does the time they spend in NXT need used differently?

BigDaveCUFC said:

If you read about WCW CS you will see that a profit can quickly within just a year turn into a massive loss, I think WCW went from making 90 million odd one year to losing 100 million the following year, once things head downwards it can very quickly because there is no alternate option.

infact TNA is a great example of how quickly things can turn badly, again just 5 years ago they were getting 1.5 to 2 million people watching, had a good roster, lots of publicity and were easily the no.2 promotion, afew bad decisions over 2-3 years and now down to non-existent and lucky to get 500,000 viewers.

I think WWE can turn it about, be handy if they wiped the 3rd our, but someone on their roster needs to step up and deliver more, saying that I think WWE should try and grab Bobby Roode and EC3 from TNA, both are excellent in their characters, but they would need to swallow some pride and allow them in with their current characters or similar (I know EC3 may be hard to use)

the biggest thing at moment, regardless of my view on NXT is why are these Nxt Charcaters completely dying a death over time in the main roster?? is it just down to booking, or how they have been built in NXT......does the time they spend in NXT need used differently?

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The NXT guys flop on the main roster because of the awful booking. Owens is a prime example of how they operate, he was given a killer push and then when they were looking for Cena's next victim he's in midcard limbo. There's no follow up.

The Lucha Dragons have to be one of the most mistreated call ups I've ever seen. They've virtually been abandoned before they have even had a chance.

BigDaveCUFC said:

If you read about WCW you will see that a profit can quickly within just a year turn into a massive loss, I think WCW went from making 90 million odd one year to losing 100 million the following year, once things head downwards it can very quickly because there is no alternate option.

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I've read The Death of WCW by Reynolds and Alvarez (which I highly recommend to everyone here, BTW) several times, and I was a WCW fan during its rise and fall. I know the history pretty well.

Things can change very quickly in pro-wrestling, but it's important to recognise that WCW went from being hugely profitable (circa 96-98) to an economic basket case (circa 99-01) because literally millions of fans lost interest and started spending their money on WWF instead. The company never had much financial discipline. It got away with its profligacy during the peak years because the product was hot and the revenue was sky high. But when millions of fans/viewers ditched WCW for WWF, the revenue suddenly dropped and they were financially fucked.

That sort of thing could happen in the late 1990s because there were two massive promotions in direct competition. But now WWE has its monopoly. It's also ditched PPV for network subscription, which is important because the former is more likely to retain people's custom. Even when the week-to-week content is dreck, people retain their subscription because they figure $10 per month for PPVs and all the NXT stuff is still very good value.

If you look at the figures, WWE has remained steadily profitable for over a decade. The only exception was 2014, and the losses suffered that year are almost certainly attributable to the high start-up costs of the network. The content has often been dire, but they've got away with it time and time again because there was no big rival for the fans to switch allegiance to. We need WCW (or something like it) back.

The only way a genuine rival could materialise is if WWE is doing well. If there's no mainstream interest in wrestling a fledgling company isn't going to succeed. Wrestling as a whole would require to be relevant enough for a fan base to appear.

Hypothetically, if that was the case, to be able to viably compete with WWE any potential rival would have to be financed by a billionaire willing to lose piles of cash. Then they would have to find a network with enough viewership to capture any sort of attention.

It's never going to happen.

^ Completely agree with your conclusion, but I occasionally comfort myself with the idea that Donald Trump (post political failure) will plough hundreds of millions into a massive new promotion just to annoy Vince.

What a fucking disaster.

Is Steve Evans morphing into Corporate Kane, or vice versa?

Rosler out, Evans in is what's...best for business.

Captain Scumbag said:

^ Completely agree with your conclusion, but I occasionally comfort myself with the idea that Donald Trump (post political failure) will plough hundreds of millions into a massive new promotion just to annoy Vince.

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Well Trump has always flirted with Vince and Wrestling so it could happen right?

McMahon and Trump occasionally do business together because Vince did Trump a solid by doing consecutive 'Manias at one of Trump's properties. They are long standing, North Eastern, business friends and that's about it.

Christian Slater said:

McMahon and Trump occasionally do business together because Vince did Trump a solid by doing consecutive 'Manias at one of Trump's properties. They are long standing, North Eastern, business friends and that's about it.

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Trump Plaza? Wasn't that technically held at what was previously the Atlantic City Convention Hall haha.

Baz said:

Trump Plaza? Wasn't that technically held at what was previously the Atlantic City Convention Hall haha.

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It is the Atlantic City Convention Centre, Trump Plaza was a casino next to the arena that sponsored the event.

Christian Slater said:

It is the Atlantic City Convention Centre, Trump Plaza was a casino next to the arena that sponsored the event.

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Thought as much. Plus Trump was also involved at WM23 though I think everyone would have paid to see Trump lose that dodgy wig