Attacks in Paris + Belgium

Ian said:

going out on a limb here but probably not the same cell that did the paris attack

Click to expand...

I know but it's probably not worth it's own thread and seemed more relevant to this discussion than the Syria one.

Whitechapel said:

Hostage situation in France...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-eur...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Click to expand...

Armed robbery gone wrong, the robbers must be absolutely brain dead to think now would be a good time to commit an armed robbery near the France/Belgium border.

Maybe they are just absolutely marginalised?

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Paris terrorist 'phoned Birmingham several times before attacks'

Click to expand...

And the Brummie accent tipped him over the edge?

We mustn't rule anything out at this point.

Cheese & Biscuits said:

And the Brummie accent tipped him over the edge?

Click to expand...

Probably a Villa fan too.

mnb089mnb said:

Probably a Villa fan too.

Click to expand...

Some people have no luck.

That'll make things better

France elections: Le Pen says political elite 'crumbling'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35025846

.V. said:

That'll make things better

France elections: Le Pen says political elite 'crumbling'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35025846

Click to expand...

FN have been doing well for a while now. Not surprising they've grown in support post-Paris attacks. From what I can tell, modern FN is slightly less extreme than it was under JM Le Pen. On a UK scale they're probably more nationalist than UKIP but slightly racist than the BNP. Danish People's Party kind of stuff.

I could be wrong. But they definitely seem to have eased off on the anti-semitism. Could be political expediency, I guess.

Alty said:

I could be wrong. But they definitely seem to have eased off on the anti-semitism. Could be political expediency, I guess.

Click to expand...

Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

Read today (in France, but can't remember where I read it) that just 7% of the 'swing' to FN is post-Paris attacks. It's disappointing. You get a sense that DAESH wins if the FN does. The jihadi nutters are desperate for more Muslims to be alienated and marginalised. The PS have withdrawn from three regions now...so the choice for voters is right or far right. Sounds not unlike coastal Hampshire.

HertsWolf said:

Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

Read today (in France, but can't remember where I read it) that just 7% of the 'swing' to FN is post-Paris attacks. It's disappointing. You get a sense that DAESH wins if the FN does. The jihadi nutters are desperate for more Muslims to be alienated and marginalised. The PS have withdrawn from three regions now...so the choice for voters is right or far right. Sounds not unlike coastal Hampshire.

Click to expand...

I'm really surprised and disappointed. A lot of the information I was getting from France was of a divided FN in decline. We'll have to wait and see regarding the second round of voting but it does look increasingly pessimistic.

Meanwhile, an American politician, Michele Fiore, has combined the classic Yuletide ho-ho-ho combo of massacring refugees with holiday travel and is promising to "fly to Paris" to "put them down myself".

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/michele-fiore-syrian-refugees-shoot-em

Perhaps more sad than this sorry excuse for a politician is the fact that a shedload of people in Nevada voted her in to office. God bless democracy! Now let's get rid of those evil bishops from the Lords!

Alty said:

FN have been doing well for a while now. Not surprising they've grown in support post-Paris attacks. From what I can tell, modern FN is slightly less extreme than it was under JM Le Pen. On a UK scale they're probably more nationalist than UKIP but slightly racist than the BNP. Danish People's Party kind of stuff.

I could be wrong. But they definitely seem to have eased off on the anti-semitism. Could be political expediency, I guess.

Click to expand...

Front National have been doing well for years because they work in the community on local issues and behave like a relatively mature political party, they attack globalism, mass immigration and multiculturalism as ideologies (not to mention the baby boomer generation) instead of what the BNP seems to do nowadays, which is wander around telling people that their children are going to be chopped up and put into kebab meat if they don't stop teh muzzie invasion™.

If not for the ineptitude and infiltration of the BNP we'd probably have our own version of Front National, the issues make this country ripe for it. Of course, that could all be nipped in the bud if one of the more mainstream parties took a more populist approach to immigration...

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Front National have been doing well for years because they work in the community on local issues and behave like a relatively mature political party, they attack globalism, mass immigration and multiculturalism as ideologies (not to mention the baby boomer generation) instead of what the BNP seems to do nowadays, which is wander around telling people that their children are going to be chopped up and put into kebab meat if they don't stop teh muzzie invasion™.

If not for the ineptitude and infiltration of the BNP we'd probably have our own version of Front National, the issues make this country ripe for it. Of course, that could all be nipped in the bud if one of the more mainstream parties took a more populist approach to immigration...

Click to expand...

How on earth is this country ripe for it? UKIP couldn't raise a semi in Oldham. The BNP is down to its last 500 members and the far right's street presence lives in fear.

Aber gas said:

How on earth is this country ripe for it? UKIP couldn't raise a semi in Oldham. The BNP is down to its last 500 members and the far right's street presence lives in fear.

Click to expand...

Street presence? We're talking about grown up politics here, not the overgrown kiddies of the NF or Antifa who run around shouting at each other thinking they're hard while the rest of the country face-palms. UKIP are just seen as the Conservatives on steroids, while economically Front National are about as right-wing as Labour are. If FN can rise in a traditionally pro-EU, pro-Schengen country like France then what would competent nationalists do in Britain? You should thank your lucky stars that the far-right over here is as inept as it is.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Street presence? We're talking about grown up politics here, not the overgrown kiddies of the NF or Antifa who run around shouting at each other thinking they're hard while the rest of the country face-palms. UKIP are just seen as the Conservatives on steroids, while economically Front National are about as right-wing as Labour are. If FN can rise in a traditionally pro-EU, pro-Schengen country like France then what would competent nationalists do in Britain? You should thank your lucky stars that the far-right over here is as inept as it is.

Click to expand...

Do you "thank your lucky stars" that the far-right over here is an inept as it is?

I don't want a far-right party to become a viable electoral force, but if a little bit of far-right success lead to the mainstream parties taking a different position on the EU, mass immigration, passive multiculturalism, civic nationalism etc. in order to quash it, then I wouldn't complain.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Street presence? We're talking about grown up politics here, not the overgrown kiddies of the NF or Antifa who run around shouting at each other thinking they're hard while the rest of the country face-palms. UKIP are just seen as the Conservatives on steroids, while economically Front National are about as right-wing as Labour are. If FN can rise in a traditionally pro-EU, pro-Schengen country like France then what would competent nationalists do in Britain? You should thank your lucky stars that the far-right over here is as inept as it is.

Click to expand...

Why would I thank my lucky stars? It's not an accident that the far right is not a political force here. Through a combination of having a strong anti fascist tradition and creating a culture of tolerance and acceptance of different creeds and races they have never been able to create a strong political base. As for street presence perhaps you'd do better to read up on the history of fascism especially in this country before you face palm it's importance.

Socialists in pink, Republicans in blue, Nationalists in dark blue.

Aber gas said:

Why would I thank my lucky stars? It's not an accident that the far right is not a political force here. Through a combination of having a strong anti fascist tradition and creating a culture of tolerance and acceptance of different creeds and races they have never been able to create a strong political base. As for street presence perhaps you'd do better to read up on the history of fascism especially in this country before you face palm it's importance.

Click to expand...

I think you're conflating two very different things. If Britain has an anti-fascist tradition then it's in the same sense that France does, we espouse liberty and oppose authoritarianism. Nationalism though? That has never really been at odds with British public sentiment, neither has strong immigration control or euroscepticism. The political elite has always fought against those things, if anything. You're right that it's not an accident that the far-right is so weak in Britain, but it has far more to do with the mind-boggling ineptitude of ethnonationalists here than it does about Britain being infertile ground for it. You only have to look at Scandinavia to see what the far-right can manage in countries far more hostile to them than ours is.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Front National have been doing well for years because they work in the community on local issues and behave like a relatively mature political party, they attack globalism, mass immigration and multiculturalism as ideologies

Click to expand...

They do? It would seem they are no different from any other party at local level. Whether you are a socialist, a republican or on the extreme right, resurfacing a car park, planting begonias in the middle of a roundabout or emptying the bins is done pretty much the same way. Where it becomes different is when the mayor or council decides, as just one example of the day-to-day nastiness of loutish, brutish small-town politicians, not to allow Muslims to use the salle des fêtes or halle municipale for prayer on days when the mosque isn't big enough to cope, or when second and third generation French immigrants don't elevate genuine issues to their elected official because they fear them.
What does a municipality or canton stand to gain by preventing a group praying? You think this is a way to somehow "beat" divisiveness, animosity, mistrust and fear? Really? Seriously?
What role does the decision-making on tasks such as emptying the bins have on "attack[ing] globalism, mass immigration and multiculturalism as ideologies"? You need to get a grip.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

If not for the ineptitude and infiltration of the BNP we'd probably have our own version of Front National, the issues make this country ripe for it. Of course, that could all be nipped in the bud if one of the more mainstream parties took a more populist approach to immigration...

Click to expand...

Our issues are always inflated by the media, and usually shown to be massively exaggerated if not utterly false. Britain has plenty of choice of far right clowns and bigots for which they can vote. The Isle of Thanet might point to how good some of them have proved to be when in "power" at local level.
Immigration is a problem mainly because people fear newcomers and they fear change as they have done from time immemorial, but since time immemorial, the fears have always turned out to be unsubstantiated and then unfulfilled. Yes.....get a grip.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

I don't want a far-right party to become a viable electoral force, but if a little bit of far-right success lead to the mainstream parties taking a different position on the EU, mass immigration, passive multiculturalism, civic nationalism etc. in order to quash it, then I wouldn't complain.

Click to expand...

Ah, the old "At least Mussolini made the trains run on time" argument. (i.e. Some 'good' might come of their success....)
What you actually mean is you DO want a far-right party to become a viable electoral force. Yes?

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Click to expand...

is everyone else seeing the laughing skull

Ebeneezer Goode said:

Socialists in pink, Republicans in blue, Nationalists in dark blue.



I think you're conflating two very different things. If Britain has an anti-fascist tradition then it's in the same sense that France does, we espouse liberty and oppose authoritarianism. Nationalism though? That has never really been at odds with British public sentiment, neither has strong immigration control or euroscepticism. The political elite has always fought against those things, if anything. You're right that it's not an accident that the far-right is so weak in Britain, but it has far more to do with the mind-boggling ineptitude of ethnonationalists here than it does about Britain being infertile ground for it. You only have to look at Scandinavia to see what the far-right can manage in countries far more hostile to them than ours is.

Click to expand...

Fascists or " ethnonationalists" have surely had enough goes at being viable by now. It's a cop out to just state that the failings of fascists ( ethnonationalists) is down to ineptitude without conceding the impact of ANL,AFA, Searchlight and antifa. There's also the strong connection between the labour movement and anti fash politics.
There's also rock against racism, gay pride( massive crossover with anti fascist) the entire rave and club scene and kick it out. Britain has built an multicultural, diverse and tolerant culture ( thank fuck) .

HertsWolf said:

They do? It would seem they are no different from any other party at local level. Whether you are a socialist, a republican or on the extreme right, resurfacing a car park, planting begonias in the middle of a roundabout or emptying the bins is done pretty much the same way. Where it becomes different is when the mayor or council decides, as just one example of the day-to-day nastiness of loutish, brutish small-town politicians, not to allow Muslims to use the salle des fêtes or halle municipale for prayer on days when the mosque isn't big enough to cope, or when second and third generation French immigrants don't elevate genuine issues to their elected official because they fear them.
What does a municipality or canton stand to gain by preventing a group praying? You think this is a way to somehow "beat" divisiveness, animosity, mistrust and fear? Really? Seriously?
What role does the decision-making on tasks such as emptying the bins have on "attack[ing] globalism, mass immigration and multiculturalism as ideologies"? You need to get a grip.

Our issues are always inflated by the media, and usually shown to be massively exaggerated if not utterly false. Britain has plenty of choice of far right clowns and bigots for which they can vote. The Isle of Thanet might point to how good some of them have proved to be when in "power" at local level.
Immigration is a problem mainly because people fear newcomers and they fear change as they have done from time immemorial, but since time immemorial, the fears have always turned out to be unsubstantiated and then unfulfilled. Yes.....get a grip.

Click to expand...

HertsWolf said:

Ah, the old "At least Mussolini made the trains run on time" argument. (i.e. Some 'good' might come of their success....)
What you actually mean is you DO want a far-right party to become a viable electoral force. Yes?

Click to expand...

You seem to have charged into this discussions with such well-meaning bluster that you've managed to completely misinterpret what I'm saying. I don't even know exactly what points you're meant to be attacking, because they don't seem to be any that I have actually made. I wasn't defending Front National, just so we're clear, I was attempting to explain why they have so much more mainstream success compared to their British counterparts.

Aber gas said:

Fascists or " ethnonationalists" have surely had enough goes at being viable by now. It's a cop out to just state that the failings of fascists ( ethnonationalists) is down to ineptitude without conceding the impact of ANL,AFA, Searchlight and antifa. There's also the strong connection between the labour movement and anti fash politics.

Click to expand...

I'm sceptical of their effect because they operate, in essence, outside of electoral politics. The public are not swayed by ethnonationalists rambling about an Islamic takeover any more than they are by leaflets about fascists on their doorstep, much less two groups shouting at each other in the street. This isn't real politics. These groups have a symbiotic relationship that the average Briton isn't even aware of, never mind cares about. Sweden for example has a far more militant far-left than Britain does, going as far as house-raids of nationalists homes and even stabbings in the street, yet the political far-right is still far more successful over there than it is here, in a country that I would say is more hostile to it overall. Why? Because they have a far-right that's professional in much the same way that Front National is. There's a similar story in Denmark and Holland also. If the far-left has had any significant impact on the far-right in the UK then it's probably through infiltration, not counter-campaigning, because the BNP & co cause all their own problems. Total buffoons.

If not this, how would you two explain the disparity between Britain and France? You think that the far-left in France is that much weaker? Or that they're naturally more nativist than we are? Because there isn't a starker difference than the way our respective far-right parties operate as far as I can see.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

You seem to have charged into this discussions with such well-meaning bluster that you've managed to completely misinterpret what I'm saying. I don't even know exactly what points you're meant to be attacking, because they don't seem to be any that I have actually made. I wasn't defending Front National, just so we're clear, I was attempting to explain why they have so much more mainstream success compared to their British counterparts.

Click to expand...

You said the "Front National have been doing well for years because they work in the community on local issues and behave like a relatively mature political party, they attack globalism, mass immigration and multiculturalism as ideologies".

I showed that they don't work well in the local community, don't behave like a mature political party and that globalism, mass immigration and multiculturalism are not even part of the agenda locally.

But nice try.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

You seem to have charged into this discussions with such well-meaning bluster that you've managed to completely misinterpret what I'm saying. I don't even know exactly what points you're meant to be attacking, because they don't seem to be any that I have actually made. I wasn't defending Front National, just so we're clear, I was attempting to explain why they have so much more mainstream success compared to their British counterparts.



I'm sceptical of their effect because they operate, in essence, outside of electoral politics. The public are not swayed by ethnonationalists rambling about an Islamic takeover any more than they are by leaflets about fascists on their doorstep, much less two groups shouting at each other in the street. This isn't real politics. These groups have a symbiotic relationship that the average Briton isn't even aware of, never mind cares about. Sweden for example has a far more militant far-left than Britain does, going as far as house-raids of nationalists homes and even stabbings in the street, yet the political far-right is still far more successful over there than it is here, in a country that I would say is more hostile to it overall. Why? Because they have a far-right that's professional in much the same way that Front National is. There's a similar story in Denmark and Holland also. If the far-left has had any significant impact on the far-right in the UK then it's probably through infiltration, not counter-campaigning, because the BNP & co cause all their own problems. Total buffoons.

If not this, how would you two explain the disparity between Britain and France? You think that the far-left in France is that much weaker? Or that they're naturally more nativist than we are? Because there isn't a starker difference than the way our respective far-right parties operate as far as I can see.

Click to expand...

I understand your view but dismissing political action because it falls outside electoral politics is too simplistic imo. Nationalists have always relied upon having a " street" base in order to flourish electorally so when this is challenged it logically affects their ability to gain votes. I understand completely why you're sceptical because what I'm saying isn't quantifiable.
John Tyndall the leader of arguably Britains last major nationalist party "our great marches, with drums and flags and banners, have a hypnotic effect in solidifying the allegiance of our followers so that their enthusiasm can be sustained" They just can't do that with an active antifa so they suffer electorally as a result. Martyn Webster also wrote later that antifa activity was crucial in stopping NF from becoming an electoral force.

I genuinely think the incompetence of far-right politicians has far more to do with extreme nationalist politics being on its arse than the activities of anti-fascist street protesters. Once the people of Northwest England and London got a proper look at Griffin and Barnbrook it was confirmed that these guys are total imbeciles.

Throw in the fact there's now a more viable party that actually cares about reducing immigration (I'm less critical than most on here of UKIP, but let's be honest and accept that they do hold more appeal to racists than any other mainstream party) and the prospects for the far-right look pretty poor.

How does Frances voting system work? Seems FN are now back without any seats? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35088276

Va te faire enculer le Pen
This news has cheered me up no end. The French have seen sense and voted tactically to keep out the vile National Front.
Viva la France
No pasaren