the Migrant Crisis

MorDon said:

You are a moron.

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lol

MorDon said:

No, that says "Open or Die" not any German stuff....

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Fuck sake.

Ian said:

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Just to be a dour bastard, as is my wont, I thought Oliver made a good case for bringing in more refugees...by pointing out they were undergoing extensive vetting, unlike on mainland Europe. I think there are probably three broad arguments (obviously there will be variations therein):

1. Take everyone who comes
2. Do proper vetting in Turkey and Lebanon then take those who need help
3. Decide it's not our problem and take none.

Option 2 for me.

Also, I hope The Bugle comes back now that LWT is over for a while. Bloody love it.

lebanon is facing its own insurgency and has obvious problems with hizbollah and the refugees they've already accepted. i feel any solution incorporating lebanon a risky proposition. turkey would be good though, not sure if they're included in any of the refugee resettlement programmes we got going. i understand those are run by the eu, but it would be good to get turkey involved, running them as an equal member. would be good for improving european-turkish relations too

MorDon said:

You are a moron.

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and you're an obnoxious gobshite.

Aber gas said:

and you're an obnoxious gobshite.

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"Borders are violence" is a stupid statement. How can a border itself be violent? He condones violence used to get to his political goals where he says that the use of threats by these refugees is an acceptable thing to force people to change their minds. He stated that the sign saying "Open or Die" is acceptable yet tells us that these people are peaceful the next moment? Someone who is peaceful does not hold up a sign saying give me what I want or I will kill you.

Ian Wrexham is one of those nutters who bangs on about cisgender privilege, and white male privilege. Don't believe me, just look at his previous posts. I bet the recent news that white men are most likely not to go to university is one he conveniently ignores.

mnb089mnb said:

Fuck sake.

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I know full well that die means "the" in German. But it is nothing to do with what is being said there despite what Herts implied.

white men do have it pretty hard

MorDon said:

"Borders are violence" is a stupid statement. How can a border itself be violent? He condones violence used to get to his political goals where he says that the use of threats by these refugees is an acceptable thing to force people to change their minds. He stated that the sign saying "Open or Die" is acceptable yet tells us that these people are peaceful the next moment? Someone who is peaceful does not hold up a sign saying give me what I want or I will kill you.

Ian Wrexham is one of those nutters who bangs on about cisgender privilege, and white male privilege. Don't believe me, just look at his previous posts. I bet the recent news that white men are most likely not to go to university is one he conveniently ignores.


I know full well that die means "the" in German. But it is nothing to do with what is being said there despite what Herts implied.

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Ian is one of the best posters on here. You might not agree with his views but he can back up his Marxist position. To call him a moron, fuckwit( on a another thread) and to "fucking do one " is fucking shite tbh.

Aber gas said:

Ian is one of the best posters on here. You might not agree with his views but he can back up his Marxist position. To call him a moron, fuckwit( on a another thread) and to "fucking do one " is fucking shite tbh.

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I disagree. Anyone who suggests that white people cannot be victims of racism because of the colour of their skin (an ironic little bit of racism itself) is a moron and a fuckwit, and I assert my right to say so.

Ian said:

white men do have it pretty hard

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I didn't say that. But I'll take the bait.

1. White men are more likely to commit suicide than any other ethnic group in western countries.
2. White men in Britain are least likely to go to university and are themselves becoming a "disadvantaged group". Access to education is a key element of judging whether groups are fairly represented by society-http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10195336/UCAS-white-teenagers-less-likely-to-apply-to-university.html

Ian and his ilk act like white people have the world on a string, life is easy as fuck and everything just falls onto a plate for them. That attitude is genuinely harmful and helps reinforce the negative attitudes men have towards seeking assistance for mental health problems.

first point is solved with feminism. patriarchy hurts men as well as women with its foolish conceptions of strength and masculinity. hiding emotions with bravado and machismo etc

second point, a lot more women are applying for uni than men. so i dunno, ain't exactly a strong one. the other ian has never argued that there aren't any issues that affect men, fwiw. mental health is a huge one obviously, and i imagine if u were genuinely interested in the issue and started a thread on it he'd post, as it's an issue he has some experience in if i recall correctly

Ian said:

first point is solved with feminism. patriarchy hurts men as well as women with its foolish conceptions of strength and masculinity. hiding emotions with bravado and machismo etc

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That doesn't make sense. Predominantly white countries are probably the least patriarchal in the world. If anything, then, it's the most feminism-influenced men that are suffering the most.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

That doesn't make sense. Predominantly white countries are probably the least patriarchal in the world. If anything, then, it's the most feminism-influenced men that are suffering the most.

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edit: oh wait i get ya now

Ian said:

i read this a couple times still makes no sense to me

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Western countries which have more feminist influence are less patriarchal than the Islamic countries which have none

oh i get ya. way i heard it argued in america as to why white men were second largest suicide risks (after (i think) native americans) was to do with survival tactics. african americans were used to having to fight for what they needed was the basic argument. more used to the struggle in a way. their parents had fought for their rights, they had first hand experience with systemic racism and they were (per capita) far poorer than white men on average. white man goes through hard times there's less of a community in many ways, and (generally speaking of course) not so much experience with fighting and working the system. the argument for why men kill themselves more than women is well documented but the minority suicide argument makes some sense in the american context. i imagine it plays somewhat into ours, although the uk has always been more of a classist than an overtly racist society though so it's a bit different here. i'd also be interested in religion amongst non-whites in the uk. i'd assume (willing to be proven wrong here) that on average ethnic minorities are more religious, and religious people kill themselves a lot less than those without a faith (or those with cultural religion)

it's an interesting topic though

edit: thought of it a little more and i'm convinced it has to do with community, individualism vs the group
edit 2: wonder if the suicide rate changed much before and after thatcher

Ian said:

oh i get ya. way i heard it argued in america as to why white men were second largest suicide risks (after (i think) native americans) was to do with survival tactics. african americans were used to having to fight for what they needed was the basic argument. more used to the struggle in a way. their parents had fought for their rights, they had first hand experience with systemic racism and they were (per capita) far poorer than white men on average. white man goes through hard times there's less of a community in many ways, and (generally speaking of course) not so much experience with fighting and working the system. the argument for why men kill themselves more than women is well documented but the minority suicide argument makes some sense in the american context. i imagine it plays somewhat into ours, although the uk has always been more of a classist than an overtly racist society though so it's a bit different here. i'd also be interested in religion amongst non-whites in the uk. i'd assume (willing to be proven wrong here) that on average ethnic minorities are more religious, and religious people kill themselves a lot less than those without a faith (or those with cultural religion)

it's an interesting topic though

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Aye, you've got to be careful with stats, posters have been quite careless with them in this thread already. Also, it's not always as simple as being religious means you won't kill yourself. Religious people tend to belong to a church/mosque, both of which have excellent support networks that people of a non-religious background don't always have access to.

It's not just stereotypes about men that influences high suicide rates, men are infinitely more disposable in our modern society for a number of reasons, the fact they can't really have a voice without it being labelled a misogynistic hate group doesn't help matters either (plenty of "MRA" groups are bitter men but moderate voices are chucked in the same category). There's a great irony that people believe a large number of men in government means our issues are adequately covered but when specific men's issues get brought up they get mocked and ridiculed (literally in Parliament recently).

Men undeniably have a voice though. I certainly wouldn't seek to deny that it's an issue worthy of attention but surely gender norms are a big part of the problem? The idea that men are expected to be the breadwinners, protectors and providers remains very prevalent - when they struggle to fulfill that role they lack self-worth, feel emasculated. And this is essentially the problem so far as I can see - the stats show that females are even more likely to experience suicidal thoughts. The fact that they're less likely to act upon them may be down to better support networks but it may also reflect the fact that men are deeply reluctant to seek help and support as a result of their conditioning, where crying or displaying any kind of emotional openness is very much discouraged.

The price of the welfare state, perhaps. You remove the need for close familial and communal support networks and so they go the way of the dodo. I can see people want to shoehorn this into a feminist narrative, but the suicide rates don't correlate with patriarchal society, quite the opposite. It could just as easily be the case that gender roles are a healthy thing. It's not like they sprung out of thin air in the first place.

me thinks someone's come down with a bad case of confirmation bias there

That's an odd thing to say. I didn't even drawn any conclusions, let alone convenient ones.

no but u were oddly yet characteristically quick to dismiss the feminist theory behind the high suicide rate, without offering anything really as a rebuttal

The Paranoid Pineapple said:

Men undeniably have a voice though. I certainly wouldn't seek to deny that it's an issue worthy of attention but surely gender norms are a big part of the problem? The idea that men are expected to be the breadwinners, protectors and providers remains very prevalent - when they struggle to fulfill that role they lack self-worth, feel emasculated. And this is essentially the problem so far as I can see - the stats show that females are even more likely to experience suicidal thoughts. The fact that they're less likely to act upon them may be down to better support networks but it may also reflect the fact that men are deeply reluctant to seek help and support as a result of their conditioning, where crying or displaying any kind of emotional openness is very much discouraged.

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Do we? How many of these men speak about "men's issues" like suicide, decreasing performance in education, health problems and so on? There's an assumption that because Parliament is full of men our issues are therefore being addressed, and that in actual fact we are disproportionally having our issues addressed simply because the people in Parliament are men. Very recently somebody wanted to speak about men's issues in Parliament, a female MP scoffed and effectively stated "it's always time to talk about men's issues. That's a tacit assumption that our predominance in Parliament equates to our issues having a voice.

This isn't a even a "woe the men" type of post, actually I believe everyone has issues of varying severity and number and they should all be addressed, but I don't agree at all that we "have a voice" just because the dominant gender in politics is male. Very few of them talk about the issues effecting men like high suicide rates, there's a difference between there's a ton of men in there and there being men discussing these things.

Gender norms are a integral part of it I would agree but there is a increasingly hostile viewpoint that men's experiences matter less due to "privilege", we've had it so good for so long we need to be quiet and let the "oppressed" speak first etc. Just look at the assumption that because government is mostly male we therefore have our interests automatically represented disproportionately. I'm not saying this is a dominant view, but it's becoming increasingly more prevalent on university campuses where men do suffer from mental health issues (tied heavily to stress), the idea of "privilege" is becoming this tacit assumption that because you're a man you don't really have it that bad and trust me, when it comes to mental health, it's hard enough to convince yourself you matter and your feelings are important you don't need to be told how great you've got it just because you've got a set of testicles, are white, are straight etc. It can lead to you drawing the conclusion that well maybe you should just be grateful and get on with it.

EDIT - Honestly, this could be a whole other thread, I don't want to derail migrant issues.

Ian said:

no but u were oddly yet characteristically quick to dismiss the feminist theory behind the high suicide rate, without offering anything really as a rebuttal

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If you can reconcile a model that predicts higher suicide rates in patriarchal societies with hard stats that show nothing of the sort then feel free, but I would suggest that jumping through hoops to make the radfem explanation work is more suspicious than simply dismissing it.

that's a false equivalency. men are more likely to kill themselves than women, by and large, due to societal pressures associated with being a man. however that doesn't mean there are hundreds of other reasons to kill yourself. like greenland for example which is number one for suicides. is that to do with gender? i dunno, the main reason obviously ain't tho, it's clearly more to do with a lack of opportunity and geography. men kill themselves more than women in most countries, that discrepancy interests me and the feminist argument sounds probable. that is one reason out of many, in this country alone. thousands of possible explanations for hundreds of cultures. the feminist argument explains the general trend of men killing themselves more than women (worldwide). it doesn't explain why some countries lead others. that'd rely on more cultural issues

edit: and lol at 'radfem'

Ian said:

that's a false equivalency. men are more likely to kill themselves than women, by and large, due to societal pressures associated with being a man. [...]

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How do you know that? And I'm guessing you meant false dichotomy. That's fair I suppose. It's still some weight against the radfem explanation, with none yet for it as far as I can see.

Ebeneezer Goode said:

How do you know that? And I'm guessing you meant false dichotomy. That's fair I suppose. It's still some weight against the radfem explanation, with none yet for it as far as I can see.

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it's 4.30 am gimme a break
and i don't know, none of us do it's all a matter of interpretation innit. i'd be interested in why u think men lead women on suicides all over the world

Dunno really. Maybe it's biological, maybe the extra outward aggression that testosterone gives us can also be turned inwards. It would perhaps explain why male suicide attempts are more aggressive also.

The Paranoid Pineapple said:

Men undeniably have a voice though. I certainly wouldn't seek to deny that it's an issue worthy of attention but surely gender norms are a big part of the problem? The idea that men are expected to be the breadwinners, protectors and providers remains very prevalent - when they struggle to fulfill that role they lack self-worth, feel emasculated. And this is essentially the problem so far as I can see - the stats show that females are even more likely to experience suicidal thoughts. The fact that they're less likely to act upon them may be down to better support networks but it may also reflect the fact that men are deeply reluctant to seek help and support as a result of their conditioning, where crying or displaying any kind of emotional openness is very much discouraged.

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Do you still think this is the case? I'm not sure. My missus makes more money than I do, and I do most of the cooking in our house. I don't feel emasculated