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Fifty years after the Lisbon lions - what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Scottish Football' started by Bilo, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. Bilo

    Bilo Well-Known Member

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    Through seeing Celtic's new kit I realized it's 50 years since Celtic were the first British team to lift the European cup in Lisbon 1967. Surely few other cup wins are as renowned, with so many tributes and of course "John, you're immortal now". I'm not sure why that quote is so famous but it adds something.

    Celtic obviously played a part in my upbringing as Henrik Larsson kept banging them in, and even past his peak he could go on to Barca and United and perform. The gap has widened quickly.

    But since we now have this little anniversary, I'd like to ask the Scottish contingent to write something down regarding this, it'd be an interesting read for a fair weather Premier League fan like myself. Basically, why has no other Scottish team won it in those 50 years, and why has the decline seemingly accelerated over the past decade or so?

    I'll shamelessly add tags because not even you lot check this section regularly.

    St. Juste , SALTIRE , Leo
     
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  2. Silver Stone

    Silver Stone Well-Known Member

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    The answer is pretty simple.

    :£:£:£:£:£:£:£:£:£:£:£

    Or lack thereof.
     
  3. Leo

    Leo To be a rock and not to roll. Site Supporter

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    Been busy today and have just sat down....gonna relax with a bottle of plonk and not have to think to much. All going well I'll stick something up tomorrow.
     
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  4. Abertawe

    Abertawe Site Supporter Site Supporter

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    Square sausages.
     
  5. Leo

    Leo To be a rock and not to roll. Site Supporter

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    fried, on a buttered roll, lovingly drizzled with brown HP sauce.......what a treat!
     
  6. Dirk

    Dirk Lower Saxon

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    Interesting thread, Bilo (although Leo is actually more interested in talking about "his sausage" :D ).

    Is it really 50 years ago now that Celtic won it all? Wow, time flies. I'll google the new shirt (with an 50th anniversary badge?) asap. One question:
    Why didn't they make such a shirt with a special 50th year anniversary badge already for the start of the last season because the European Cup Final was in May 1967 (which was the 1966/67 season).
    I only ask because Eintracht Braunschweig celebrated their only German Championship in 1967 last year with a 50year anniversary special logo on the shirts too and they won the Championship in May 1967 too

    Anyway, what happened since then? Scotland was very competitive still in the 70's their national team made it to Germany in 1974 and they didn't disappoint (although they haven't reached anything here), a team full of very well known players. And matches against Scottish clubs (not only Rangers or Celtic but the 2 Dundee clubs or Aberdeen and even Hearts were a good show when they played against German clubs and they won some of them). I would say with the beginning of the 80's the "slump" of Scottish football already begun and then with the installation of the English Premier League and the tv money it went down even more and the Scottish clubs in Europe are no great thread for the big nations anymore (although Rangers reached the UEFA Cup Final in 2008 but that's the exception that proves the rule)
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
    Bilo likes this.
  7. Leo

    Leo To be a rock and not to roll. Site Supporter

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    What's happened since. Well in 1967, same year as Celtic's historic win, Rangers reached the final of the European Cup Winners Cup final where they faced the classy Germans Bayern Munich in Nuremberg but unfortunately lost 1-0 due to a goal in extra time (Franz Roth iirc). They then reached and won (3-2) the final of the same tournament in 1972. 1969 saw them reach the semi final of the Fairs Cup but were beaten over 2 legs by Newcastle Utd. Celtic again reached the final of the European Cup in 1970 but lost to Feynoord in Milan. In 2008 Rangers reached the final of the UEFA cup but lost to Zenit S P. Aberdeen in 1983 reached and won the final of the ECWC against Real Madrid & they also won the UEFA Super Cup that year. Those successes apart, there hasn't been much worth shouting about. As you'll see I'm specifically talking about domestic teams as I take little interest in International matters. Anyway, over the years young players with genuine talent that have graduated through their teams various levels have in the main sought a higher standard of football and obviously a vastly superior salary by going to England so imo this is a contributory factor to falling levels within Scottish football and the ones who remain are just not good enough to assist a team to reach any European final. Is it a lower coaching standard or is it a lack of natural skillful players or probably a portion of both? And then we come to finance. It is well established that Scottish football is the poor man of TV and sponsorship deals compared to down south. Don't get me wrong, it isn't an excuse by me, simply a probable factor but I really cannot blame Sky or BT due the dross which is on show up here due to the deterioration of our game over the years.

    Why has no team won the European Cup since Celtic's great win in Lisbon....basically because no team has been good enough, the ridiculous seedings which ensure the 'big' European teams have a far better chance of reaching the Champions League latter stages. I believe this is put down to coefficients which certainly doesn't assist Scottish teams but is a noose of our own making. I'm hazarding a guess with this as I really gave up on the Champions League years ago.

    I don't know if this was what you were looking for Bilo but it's a summary of what is going through my head at the moment but no doubt Salty or that other fella may add more.
     
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  8. Gulliball

    Gulliball Active Member

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    The answer is very simple – money. Football has changed dramatically in the last 50 years, and even the last 25 years.

    Previously, Celtic could get a good crop of players and win a European tournament. If Slovakia had a good generation of footballers then Slovan Bratislava could win a European trophy. For example, they won the Cup Winner’s Cup in 1969, beating Barcelona in the final, and seven years later supplied 7 of the 11 players as Czechoslovakia won the 1976 Euros. Imagine that today, if 7 of the best players in Europe stayed in Slovakia for 7 years after winning a major trophy.

    Look at the winners of these trophies and they are very diverse. In 1991 a Serbian team won the European Cup, then football became televised, the Premier League was launched and money ruled everything.

    Aberdeen beat Real Madrid to win in Europe in 1983, then win the Super Cup a few months later. They had a good Scottish manager in Alex Ferguson, and good Scottish players. Today, anyone decent is gone by the age of 18. Ryan Fraser left for Bournemouth aged 18 when they were in League One. Fraser Fyvie was in the Aberdeen first team aged 16 and then gone to Wigan. The same for Jack Grimmer, who went to Fulham. None of those are bigger clubs than Aberdeen, but far, far richer. Whereas previously if you had 10 good Scottish/Slovak/Serbian, then the clubs in these countries could compete at the highest level.

    Now, it doesn’t matter where the players are from, they’re at a big club by the age of 18. Best case scenario is that the national team does well, but even when Belgium has their golden generation right now, no Belgian club side will win in Europe – the talents were all sold off to richer sides whilst teens. The best players from around the world will play for the richest European sides by the age of 19, so it really doesn’t matter which country produces them.

    English football looks down at Scotland because it has the money. If Celtic, with a worldwide fanbase and 60 000+ gates, also had £100m in TV money each year, they could be right up there with the best in England. Aberdeen, Hibs/Hearts, the Dundee sides etc are no worse than Hull, Huddersfield, Bournemouth or countless other English sides in terms of City size/stadium/fanbase/setup but they don’t get hundreds of millions a year.

    The trickledown effect of the money in England is that sides in the Championship and League One have more money than the best of Scotland. The best players and managers now leave Scotland for the lower leagues in England, because there is more money there. That’s hard to take for clubs like Aberdeen, where any supporter over 40 has seen them beat Real Madrid and be the best in Europe – but now second division sides in England can buy and sell them. And in the future, it’s only going to get worse as the money in England filters down to the third level and below, whilst the BBC pays more to Gary Lineker to present the English highlights than it does to all 42 clubs in Scotland combined to show theirs.
     

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