Overrated/Underrated in the PL

[SALTIRE]

Just to choose one, have you heard anyone say a single positive word about Wayne Rooney in the last three years - besides the same English pundits that have licked his sphincter since the day he broke through?

The media don't stop speaking about him though as if he's still relevant like he was five years plus back. That makes him overrated by them. Agree that most fans of other clubs see what he is now, and all fans of Man Utd detest him too it seems despite all he's done for you, but there we go.

 

[JimJams]

St Juste is a big fan I gather.

 

[Stevencc]

The media don't stop speaking about him though as if he's still relevant like he was five years plus back. That makes him overrated by them. Agree that most fans of other clubs see what he is now, and all fans of Man Utd detest him too it seems despite all he's done for you, but there we go.

I've never liked him and he's been a bit of an elephant in the room dating back even to Fergie's time in terms of him taking up space in the starting eleven that could have been better utilised by others (cramming him into midfield or the 10 position, for example). Jose has handled him perfectly, though.

Achieved a hell of a lot with the club in his time here, though, obviously.

 

[SALTIRE]

I've never liked him and he's been a bit of an elephant in the room dating back even to Fergie's time in terms of him taking up space in the starting eleven that could have been better utilised by others (cramming him into midfield or the 10 position, for example). Jose has handled him perfectly, though.

Achieved a hell of a lot with the club in his time here, though, obviously.

He'll go down as a club legend, but a legend no one will like. In twenty years when he gets wheeled out in some anniversary or whatever, he'll be utterly dismissed by the fans. Now I'm no Rooney lover, but thats harsh!

 

[Renegade]

I doubt it. I think the longer he's been retired and once the stench of his last contract has been forgotten, fans will remember him as one of United's greatest ever players. He'll be revered with close to Alan Shearer type adulation in 5-10 years time. But yes, he's been dog shit for a few seasons.

I'm pretty confident people will be eating their words about Pogba in a couple of seasons. Alongside Hazard and De Bruyne, he's the most talented player in the league in my view. Even though he had a poor season, he still does things in every match that no other player is capable of.

 

[Bilo]

I'm pretty confident people will be eating their words about Pogba in a couple of seasons. Alongside Hazard and De Bruyne, he's the most talented player in the league in my view. Even though he had a poor season, he still does things in every match that no other player is capable of.

This I agree with. Had he not had the price tag hanging over his head people would hold him as one of the top players in the league without discussion. Now it's more like "yeah but he isn't worth 100 mill".

 

[HarvSFC]

Here's one name for debate - Kante.

We all know he's very good, but is he as good as made out?

 

[Pagnell]

For a minute I thought I saw Origi mentioned in this thread as overrated despite no one really rating him.

 

[JimJams]

Here's one name for debate - Kante.

We all know he's very good, but is he as good as made out?

Fuck yes!

 

[Smally]

Don't know how anyone can call Tom Davies overrated, when as far as I'm aware he's been described as a talented kid with great potential, which is true

 

[AFCB_Mark]

For a minute I thought I saw Origi mentioned in this thread as overrated despite no one really rating him.

Swap you for Ibe?

 

[Bilo]

Here's one name for debate - Kante.

We all know he's very good, but is he as good as made out?

He's basically the Zlatan of midfield. If you have him you win the title.

 

[St. Juste]

Speaking of which, Zlatan surely goes in as underrated - some pundits were bizarrely claiming towards the end of the season Man Utd were better without him.

A titan of a player who delivered plenty of goals, and important ones too.

The contrast with Wayne Rooney couldn't be even more stark, he's 4 years younger than Ibrahmovic but peaked about 10 years earlier. It's almost as if a diet of currys and fags weren't conducive to being a professional football player. The opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to professionalism.

When I first pointed out how much Ibrahimvoic was than Rooney maybe 7 years ago on this boards predecessor it was met with howling derision. Zlatan was a long haired bottler who couldn't hack it outside Serie A and Rooney was the third best player in the world behind Messi and Ronaldo (in some cases better than Ronaldo as I recall).

Oh how times have changed.

 

[Pagnell]

Howling derision from who? The odd United fan I suspect. There were and are plenty of people like myself who have never rated Rooney that much, and weren't shy at pointing it out.

 

[JimJams]

When it comes to Juste and anything English you need to multiply exaggeration by at least 10 times that of any other subject.

 

[Pagnell]

Oh, I'm well aware of Hugh and his amusing anyone-but-England inferiority complex.

 

[Bilo]

Hugh

See this is why we want Pags as admin. He refers to people using their real name in a condescending tone. None of the current admins have that in their locker imo.

 

[epic73]

#pagnell4admin

 

[St. Juste]

Howling derision from who? The odd United fan I suspect. There were and are plenty of people like myself who have never rated Rooney that much, and weren't shy at pointing it out.

This information won't still be available, but I most certainly remember you and JimJames being shocked at the assertion Ibrahimovic was better than Rooney.

You can deny subsequently of course, but the perception of Ibrahimovic was very low on this board, and contrastingly Rooney was very high.

Anything else was just revisionism, even people who didn't think Rooney was that good were quite clear he was better than some long haired bottler like Zlatan. Torres and Tevez were better than him too as I remember

Oh, I'm well aware of Hugh and his amusing anyone-but-England inferiority complex.

If you were going to have an inferiority complex, you would surely have it relative to someone who is good? There is nobody who looks at the way England have embarrassed themselves at international football in the last 7 years and wishes it was them.

See this is why we want Pags as admin. He refers to people using their real name in a condescending tone. None of the current admins have that in their locker imo.

Hugh is not my real name, and I'm quite glad for it.

 

[JimJams]

...but I most certainly remember you and JimJams being shocked at the assertion Ibrahimovic was better than Rooney.

Dont talk wet you fucking mug. Given I've put Ibra among the top players in the world long before he decided to piss a few years away in France I can state as fact I wouldnt have been 'shocked' by that at all.
Just because Im handing your ass to you when I can be bothered to engage you before your 10 paragraph anti English drivel pops up every other post doesnt mean you actually have to involve me directly in your fantasies of conversations which never were.
In fact I dont ever remember you venturing into the Serie A forum on TFF to talk with Emmet and Noodles and co. Maybe cos there weren't any English players to shit on.

 

[Bilo]

Also, having seen 100% of both players careers, Zlatan obviously stayed at the top for much longer than Rooney. But to be completely honest, Rooney in 2007-2009 reached a level Zlatan never quite did. And that's not to take anything away from Zlatan, they were both fantastic players in their prime but if anyone is a victim of revisionism it's Wayne Rooney.

Yes his decline was heavy and yes it took five years for the pundits to notice, but it takes nothing away from the fact that at his peak, he was among the very, very best. Especially in 2007/08 playing with Tevez and Ronaldo I'd say Rooney was better than Zlatan ever was. Also, Zlatan peaked very late and Rooney peaked very early so the former has a good 4-5 years on the latter before big Z really started delivering on a regular basis around the age of 24-25.

 

[JimJams]

I'd like to rescind my earlier offensive language to St Juste, but edit function isn't working. Apologies.

 

[Danny Rose]

Also, having seen 100% of both players careers, Zlatan obviously stayed at the top for much longer than Rooney.

You definitely haven't.

 

[St. Juste]

Dont talk wet you fucking mug. Given I've put Ibra among the top players in the world long before he decided to piss a few years away in France I can state as fact I wouldnt have been 'shocked' by that at all.
Just because Im handing your ass to you when I can be bothered to engage you before your 10 paragraph anti English drivel pops up every other post doesnt mean you actually have to involve me directly in your fantasies of conversations which never were.
In fact I dont ever remember you venturing into the Serie A forum on TFF to talk with Emmet and Noodles and co. Maybe cos there weren't any English players to shit on.

Yes, well, when has this happened? I think you have a rather selective memory.

There is no way to prove who said what, or when, as the thread will be long gone. Nevertheless, if you're willing to state that you always thought Ibrahimovic is better than Rooney, and said so on this forum when it came up 7 years ago, then we will have to take that as your word, won't me?

My recollection it was a long thread, and most people, from memory including yourself Pagnell, who were genuinely incredulous the comparison was even being made.

Also, having seen 100% of both players careers, Zlatan obviously stayed at the top for much longer than Rooney. But to be completely honest, Rooney in 2007-2009 reached a level Zlatan never quite did. And that's not to take anything away from Zlatan, they were both fantastic players in their prime but if anyone is a victim of revisionism it's Wayne Rooney.

Yes his decline was heavy and yes it took five years for the pundits to notice, but it takes nothing away from the fact that at his peak, he was among the very, very best. Especially in 2007/08 playing with Tevez and Ronaldo I'd say Rooney was better than Zlatan ever was. Also, Zlatan peaked very late and Rooney peaked very early so the former has a good 4-5 years on the latter before big Z really started delivering on a regular basis around the age of 24-25.

That is complete nonsense. In 2007-2008 Rooney managed 12 league goals, he managed the same tally in the 2008-2009 season. Was 2009-2010 the only season he scored more than 20 goals in the league with a career best 26?

Meanwhile in 2007-2008 Ibrahimovic scored 17 goals in 26 league matches.and won both footballer of the year and foreign footballer of the year for Serie A. In 2008-2009 he scored 25 goals and again won both footballer of the year and foreign footballer of the year.

2009-2010 was his much maligned, but actually not that bad, spell in Barcelona where he managed a creditable 16 goals in 29 matches including being the first player to score in his first 5 games for the club. He made the 2009 UEFA team of the year which Rooney did not. Indeed Rooney has never made the team, Zlatan has 4 times.

Long story short, Rooney has never been consistently better than Ibrahimovic, at any stage. You could argue he had a better season in 2009-2010 (by far his best season ever) whilst Zlatan did well albeit at a new club in a new country. Even this 2009-2010 season does not come close to Zlatans best goalscoring season.

So, at best, for one season Rooney outperformed Ibrahimovic, and for pretty much every other season was quite a bit behind him - culminating in now where he is a fat mess and the much older Ibrahimovic lead the line for his club.

I'd like to rescind my earlier offensive language to St Juste, but edit function isn't working. Apologies.

Don't worry, it didn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[Pagnell]

This information won't still be available, but I most certainly remember you and JimJames being shocked at the assertion Ibrahimovic was better than Rooney.

Now you're just making shit up. It does nothing for your argument, such as it is. Prior to his move to United I don't recall ever commenting on Zlatan, such was my knowledge of him.

If you were going to have an inferiority complex, you would surely have it relative to someone who is good? There is nobody who looks at the way England have embarrassed themselves at international football in the last 7 years and wishes it was them.

In the case of an inferiority complex, quality is relative. England are indeed not particularly good. Scotland on the other hand are shit. Add to that the traditional issues that a lot of Scottish folk have with their southern neighbours and you have a nice little clichéd melting pot you're very much part of. I find it highly amusing you even bother denying it given your history on this board and its predecessor.

 

[Bilo]

England are indeed not particularly good. Scotland on the other hand are shit.

I like St. Juste let's keep him.

 

[St. Juste]

Now you're just making shit up. It does nothing for your argument, such as it is. Prior to his move to United I don't recall ever commenting on Zlatan, such was my knowledge of him.

In the case of an inferiority complex, quality is relative. England are indeed not particularly good. Scotland on the other hand are shit. Add to that the traditional issues that a lot of Scottish folk have with their southern neighbours and you have a nice little clichéd melting pot you're very much part of. I find it highly amusing you even bother denying it given your history on this board and its predecessor.

So you don't recall the long discussion that was had on this very board? As I said, it can't be proven, if people are willing to state that Ibrahimovic has always been better than Rooney, and they have always had that viewpoint, then fine.

What exactly are these "traditional issues"?

Scotland and England have played each other 114 times, with England winning 48 and Scotland winning 41 and 25 draws. Make no bones about it, that's an astonishing record given England is ten times the size of Scotland.

It's the equivalent of Scotland having a roughly equal record compared to Luxembourg (not exactly, Luxembourg are actually bigger than a tenth of Scotland).

So if we were to have an inferiority complex England would be the last country to use, even despite their enormous advantages our head to head record is almost equal!

As for me personally, it's obvious I offer a different perspective to most - people on this forum think Alli would be better in a holding midfield 3 than Matuidi. That needs to be corrected. I make no apology for that. This is a English centric board so of course they will overrate English players, you would see it on every national forum. Just because someone isn't part of that bubble it doesn't mean they are biased.

 

[Pagnell]

I don't recall it because it didn't happen, as you know. Making something up doesn't suddenly make it true. Outside your own head anyway.

As for the rest, it's a lot of words to deny what is obvious to anyone who read a fraction of what you post on here.

 

[Renegade]

To be fair to Hugh, I do remember a Wayne Rooney thread at the start of the 09/10 season in which there was almost a consensus that he was one of the best players in the world. I don't recall my opinion at the time, I probably stated that Rooney deserves to be in the discussion, because he was in insane form at the start of that season. Between 09-14, I thought that Zlatan was the third best player in the world, in a class of his own after Messi and Ronaldo. He did have a pretty terrible reputation on TFF at the time because he had a pretty poor record in the Champions League knockouts. I think he consolidated his position as the best #9 in the world in the following few seasons, there weren't that many doubters after the turn of the decade.

P.S. We're all old.

 

[St. Juste]

I don't recall it because it didn't happen, as you know. Making something up doesn't suddenly make it true. Outside your own head anyway.

As for the rest, it's a lot of words to deny what is obvious to anyone who read a fraction of what you post on here.

It most certainly did happen.

And if I were to make something up, I really hope I could come up with something more interesting.

Zlatan was poorly rated on this board, for a long time, meanwhile this wouldn't be the only place where Rooney was hailed as 3rd best in the world around that time.

Indeed, if you look back to when they were both starting out at United, particularly around the 2006 World Cup incident, most of the media thought Ronaldo would be chucked and they would retain the superior Rooney. There's more than a bit of egg on face when it comes to overrating Rooney relative to his far more illustrious peers.

You might not remember it, that's fine, it most certainly isn't important information - but I certainly do. Maybe I have a better memory, or are more prone to retaining worthless information.