SCOTTISH INDY REF 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO

Which side will win?

  • LEAVE

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • REMAIN

    Votes: 14 60.9%

  • Total voters
    23

smat

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Scotland has handed in a transfer request right in the middle of a relegation battle.

Will player power win out, or will they go down with the ship?

Vote now.
 
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Doubt they'll be going anywhere. They're going to base the decision on the EU. And lose. Again.

On the bright side, it means we should be rid of that toady fat cow.
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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Why would Westminster give them another referendum?
 
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Why would Westminster give them another referendum?
Because otherwise we all get to put up with another 50 years of anglophobic bitching and moaning about the British government. If they get their second 'ONCE IN A LIFETIME' referendum defeated twice in 3/4 years, maybe they'll shut up for a bit.
 
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Captain Scumbag

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Why would Westminster give them another referendum?
To rule it out completely would pour vats of fuel on the nationalist fire. Also, a decent case can be made for it on democratic grounds.

The argument will be about the timing. Sturgeon wants late 2018, at which point we should be in the latter stages of the Brexit negotiaton. It would be completely irresponsible for the UK government to agree to that timetable, so May will probably want to punt it into the post-Brexit long grass (i.e. late 2019 or early 2020).

Urgghh.
 
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Back of the queue Nicola! Sturgeon's EU hopes DASHED by Brussels after referendum pledge
NICOLA Sturgeon’s hopes of using the argument of staying in the European Union as a key vote winner in her upcoming independence referendum were dashed within seconds of her big announcement.
By Nick Gutteridge, Brussels Correspondent
PUBLISHED: 13:28, Mon, Mar 13, 2017 | UPDATED: 16:05, Mon, Mar 13, 2017

Edinburgh will receive no special treatment to either keep it in the EU or speed up its accession according to the all-powerful Commission, which was responding to the SNP leader’s announcement of a second vote on splitting up the UK.

The nationalist chief has pounced on the fact that Scotland voted Remain in last June’s referendum as an excuse to hold a second ballot, breaking a party promise made in the aftermath of the 2014 vote which kept the union together.

She has argued that Brussels will grant Holyrood a special deal to keep it in the EU if Scots vote to break away from the rest of Britain, and that this will not involve controversial issues such as adopting the euro currency.

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GETTY

Nicola Sturgeon's hopes of retaining EU membership have been dashed

But many critics have dismissed the claims as pure fantasy, and today EU chiefs brutally poured cold water on her plan by insisting that an independent Scotland would be treated the same as any other country seeking accession to the bloc.

Eurocrats were quick to respond, telling her Scotland will have to apply for membership of the bloc like any other country, which would include the mandatory acceptance of the euro as its new currency.

The EU Commission’s chief spokesman confirmed as much when he was asked about the assertion in some quarters that Edinburgh would have to “turn the clock back to zero” and negotiate new EU membership from scratch.

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EbS

EU Commission chief spokesman Margaritis Schinas said Edinburgh would have to start from scratch
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GETTY

Former Commission Chief Jose Manuel Barroso previously ruled out Scotland keeping its membership
Maragritis Schinas told reporters at a briefing that Brussels would apply the “Barroso doctrine” to Scotland’s case, an argument which states that regions opting for independence automatically lose their EU membership by opting to become a new country.

In 2012 the then Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso slapped down claims by Alex Salmond that Scots could vote to leave Britain and still keep their membership of the bloc, saying it was incompatible with both EU and international law.

He said: "I am not going to speculate now about possible secessions, it is not my job. But I can tell you that to join the European Union, yes, we have a procedure. It is a procedure of international law.

"A new state, if it wants to join the European Union, has to apply to become a member like any state. In fact, I see no country leaving and I see many countries wanting to join.

"A state has to be a democracy first of all, and that state has to apply to become a member of the European Union and all the other member states have to give their consent."

The then top eurocrat further clarified those remarks during the independence battle in 2014, saying it would be nearly “impossible” for Scotland to join the EU if it opted to split from the rest of the United Kingdom.



And the Barroso doctrine, whether that would apply? Yes, that would apply, obviously

EU Commission

Mr Barroso said: “In case there is a new country, a new state, coming out of a current member state, it will have to apply and the application and the accession to the European Union will have to be approved by all the other member states of the European Union.

“I don’t want to interfere on your referendum here, your democratic discussion here, but of course it will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all the other member states to have a new member coming from one member state.

“We have seen Spain has been opposing even the recognition of Kosovo, for instance.

“So it is to some extent a similar case because it’s a new country and so I believe it’s going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries getting the agreement of the others.”

And quizzed about Ms Sturgeon’s announcement of a new independence referendum today, Mr Schinas was less than lukewarm and offered no encouragement whatsoever that Scotland would be in line for EU membership in the event of a vote for secession.

He said: “We’ve got no particular position at the moment because these events are currently taking place.

“The commission fully respects the legal, constitutional rights of the member states to organise things as they like.

“And the Barroso doctrine, whether that would apply? Yes, that would apply, obviously.”


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The confirmation throws a huge spanner in the works of Ms Sturgeon’s independence bid, as it means Edinburgh will now have to go through the long and gruelling process of joining the EU and could face its membership being vetoed by other member states.

Accession to the bloc requires opening, negotiating and signifying off on 35 chapters laying down the rules of membership, ranging from the rule of law and freedom of the press to regulations on fishing and agriculture.

Scotland would already meet the vast majority of the criteria as it has been implementing them for decades as part of the EU, but there is no guarantee the process will run smoothly even for those countries deemed suitable to join the club.

And on top of that there is the issue of other member states, and in particular Spain, which are facing their own secessionist movements and may feel compelled to veto Scottish membership to send out a strong message to independence campaigners back home.

Ms Sturgeon will now have to go to Westminster and seek the permission of MPs in the House of Commons to told a fresh independence referendum, something which is not guaranteed given the SNP’s promise that the 2014 vote was a “once in a generation” event.

Theresa May has so far refused to say whether or not the Tories will allow the legislation required for a second vote to pass, whilst Labour has confirmed that it will fight it in Holyrood but will not oppose it if it comes to Westminster.
link

Whoopsie.
 

SALTIRE

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Well we knew all that anyway, and it certainly wouldn't take long for the process of applying and membership to be given the go-ahead.
 

Ian_Wrexham

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Whichever way it goes, it'll be 52-48 or similar and end up being a really unpleasant and divisive issue, so the real winners will be conspiracy theorists, accelerationists, connoisseurs of the political discourse of late capitalism and those of us who long for the Balkanisation of the UK.

In the ensuing armed conflict I hope for the following:
- the English to be kicked out of Cornwall
- Wales to have her historic claim to the Hen Ogledd (and its nuclear arsenal) recognised by the international community.
- the reconstitution of the heptarchy
- Mercia to become a client state of Wales with Shrewsbury and Telford demolished to make way for reservoirs.
 
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Well we knew all that anyway, and it certainly wouldn't take long for the process of applying and membership to be given the go-ahead.
I think Spain would have something to say about that considering the Catalonia issue.
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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Scotland 'exports' twice as much to the rest of the UK than the rest of the world combined, never mind the EU. I'm not sure how leaving the UK to become an EU member would help the Scots. Independence based on economic grounds at least should be less appealing post-Brexit than ever.
 
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Captain Scumbag

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I had such fun playing on the radical Team Leave last season. Cruel to transfer me back to Team Negative Scaremongering Bastards so soon. Political kharma is a bitch, I guess.
 

Ian_Wrexham

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I would vote leave because I like the idea of Captain Scumbag finally getting his treasured EU exit, only to rejoin a year later as part of an independent Scotland.
 

shane

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Leo

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The following is a statement made by our wee shoogly heid Sturgeon (watch her when she's on tv)....

"The case for full self-government ultimately transcends the issues of Brexit, of oil, of National wealth and balance sheets and of political fads and trends"

That shows clearly what she thinks of the Scottish electorate! She is also a proven liar.....

The following agreement was signed by David Cameron, Alex Salmond & Sturgeon.......

The Edinburgh Agreement (full title: Agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government on a referendum on independence for Scotland) is the agreement between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government, signed on 15 October 2012 at St Andrew's House, Edinburgh, on the terms for the Scottish independence referendum, 2014.[1]

Both governments agreed that the referendum should:

  • have a clear legal base
  • be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament
  • be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, government and people
  • deliver a fair test and decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect.
 

Leo

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Well we knew all that anyway, and it certainly wouldn't take long for the process of applying and membership to be given the go-ahead.
You think Salty ? You are in for a big shock my friend! Btw....Sturgeon has to have the bill passed in the Scottish Parliament and will only manage due to that wee creepy bastard Harvie and his cohorts. She then has to get permission from the UK Government to hold such another 'once in a generation' referendum. I'd laugh my fucking head off if May said...Get it right fucking up ye......:lol:
 
A

Alty

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I guess this was inevitable. Brexit is the only realistic excuse, and it's nothing more than an excuse, to hold another referendum. The SNP claim they were being terribly constructive by suggesting Scotland could remain in the single market while the rest of the UK left, but did anyone really believe that was viable? Let's be honest, the past 9 months with the proposals for a Scotland inside the UK and EU has all been a big boondoggle. It was all a front to make it look like the SNP hadn't rushed to the independence option immediately.

Polling suggests most Scottish people don't want a referendum, so I don't think it's altogether mental to imagine the Westminster Government just pointing to "once in a generation" and refusing it. Although there are obvious political risks to that. Probably safest bet is as Scumbag suggests - push the timetable back. Allowing it to happen in 2018 would leave the door open for the SNP to make a "it's one uncertain future vs another" argument. Pushing it to 2019/20 would change the playing field. A clearly outlined Brexit Britain vs who knows what with the SNP.

I like to think this would come down to a lot more than economics (though the case for independence is even weaker now). People moan about the Tories or May, but Governments come and go for Christ's sake. This is about the nation state you want to belong to. I can't imagine a massive swing having taking place in less than 5 years.
 

Indian Dan

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So, the fishwife wants independence from the UK so that Scotland can bend over for Brussels.

I lived in Ireland for 10 years and saw how they treated a smaller member. The fuckers have thrown Spanish and Greek youth into a lifetime of financial struggle.

Good luck with that, Scotland.
 

smat

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Indian Dan

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Good God, another one. If Salmond had still been leader of the SNP, I'd have an equally derisive adjective for him, too. That's equality for you.
 

AnimoEtFide

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I'm most looking forward to seeing how those who not long ago argued that EU membership was such an important issue it demanded a referendum now argue that the UK having left the EU since the last Scottish independence referendum isn't significant enough to give grounds for a second one.
 
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My thread is no place for misogyny - if you are unable to express your support for the union without revealing how much you despise women speaking in public, please keep your counsel.

Respectfully, thanks.

May I ask how exactly calling her a fat toady cow is misogynist? If you have managed to construe that comment as misogynist, then I am afraid that the problem lies more with you my friend, and I request that you too keep your counsel and do not make accusatory remarks with no basis.

Thanks.

Good God, another one. If Salmond had still been leader of the SNP, I'd have an equally derisive adjective for him, too. That's equality for you.

Also, this.
 

TheMinsterman

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May I ask how exactly calling her a fat toady cow is misogynist? If you have managed to construe that comment as misogynist, then I am afraid that the problem lies more with you my friend, and I request that you too keep your counsel and do not make accusatory remarks with no basis.

Thanks.

It's fucking bovineist is what it is, what have cows done to you? They give you cheese you ungrateful midlander.
 

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