Tunisia v England, 18th June, 7pm(GMT)

Soup Ladle

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Not at all, England have always been incredibly positive as to their chances. I wish Scotland were more like it.

To argue that they haven't been positive is quite astonishing. Shearers quote from Euro 2012 summed it up "maybe expectations are so low we just might win it".

Rarely has one line encapsulated the English mindset towards football since 2008. We might be rubbish, but we can still win tournaments.

As for Kanes statement, he's clearly quite far off the level of those who is speaking about, but do other nations do this? Does a Colombian sport website have a front page story of James Rodriguez wanting to be as good as Messi or Ronaldo? Does Poland do it with Lewandowski?

I don't know, it just seems bizarre to me.

Kane might think it, but how is it news?
Nobody says we’re going to win it. Quarters would be an excellent showing for us and nobody would complain.

To be honest we should have high expectations bearing in mind the league we have and facilities we have for coaching. Whether we can deliver on that is another matter but the overall strategy has to be to go deep into Euros and World Cups.

As for Kane not being on Messi or Ronaldo’s level, he’s not but he’s a different type of striker. He’s not a talisman, false 9 or playmaker, he’s an old fashioned centre forward who is very good at what he does. If he gets the service he can score lots of goals. That’s what he does.

Impressive to see your command of Polish and Colombian Spanish is so good to know that those countries would never ever ever hype up their best players. I’m sure they don’t. Your memory is also excellent, plucking out random quotes from 2012 that mean sod all.

I’m looking forward to the next England game and I haven’t been able to say that for many years. Can’t we just enjoy the tournament without having sad acts twisting the knife in?
 

Bobbin'

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As for Kanes statement, he's clearly quite far off the level of those who is speaking about, but do other nations do this? Does a Colombian sport website have a front page story of James Rodriguez wanting to be as good as Messi or Ronaldo? Does Poland do it with Lewandowski?
Clearly, he was asked a specific question and answered it.

I doubt he rang the BBC to organise an interview so he could tell everyone that he wants to be as good as Messi or Ronaldo, which is all he has said by the way not that he is as good as them, but the aim is to reach those levels. In terms of goals scored and when you consider who he plays for, he keeps up fairly well I’d say.
 

Abertawe

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Honestly can't wait until the moment Southgate realises he's been deluding himself with his pep/klopp act. England ran themselves into the ground first 30 minutes - dumb as hell.
 

Bobbin'

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Wouldn’t have been dumb as hell had we been 3-0 up as we should have been. It would have been pretty damn effective.
 

Abertawe

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Wouldn’t have been dumb as hell had we been 3-0 up as we should have been. It would have been pretty damn effective.
Well you weren't. You've tailed off badly three games in a row now - you're gonna be smashed in the second half against a good team.
 

AFCB_Mark

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Putting an emphasis on a fast start trying to get ahead, knowing it if it doesn't work out you may compromise yourself later, is a perfectly legitimate football tactic used week in and week out. It doesn't make Southgate a Guardiola or a Simeone, but it doesn't make him 'dumb' either.

We left enough in the tank for a late push that created the chances that won the game. Again for the 'should score' - Rashford should have scored the winner before Kane.

Against a good team (like Belgium) I would wager we'll play a completely different game, more cautious, deeper, containment hoping to counter.

If we do try and play Belgium the same way as we played Tunisia first half, and presumably the same way we'll play Panama, then yes that would be quite silly, because we'd get picked apart. Belgium have better players and thus it'll need good tactics to get something against them.
 

Bobbin'

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Well you weren't. You've tailed off badly three games in a row now - you're gonna be smashed in the second half against a good team.
No we weren’t, but the point is the finishing was off not Southgate’s tactics.
 

Abertawe

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Putting an emphasis on a fast start trying to get ahead, knowing it if it doesn't work out you may compromise yourself later, is a perfectly legitimate football tactic used week in and week out. It doesn't make Southgate a Guardiola or a Simeone, but it doesn't make him 'dumb' either.

We left enough in the tank for a late push that created the chances that won the game. Again for the 'should score' - Rashford should have scored the winner before Kane.

Against a good team (like Belgium) I would wager we'll play a completely different game, more cautious, deeper, containment hoping to counter.

If we do try and play Belgium the same way as we played Tunisia first half, and presumably the same way we'll play Panama, then yes that would be quite silly.
You shouldn't be playing that way against group minnows. Once 1-0 you should've reduced the tempo down to a stroll with possession and killed the game.

He's obviously only got this system too otherwise you wouldn't set out against Tunisia like that. He talks about strategy every interview that he gives when the truth is he hasn't the first clue about strategy.
 

Abertawe

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No we weren’t, but the point is the finishing was off not Southgate’s tactics.
You're not going to finish with the players at your disposal. That is why these tactics are so dumb. In counter situations you're relying upon the quality of boys that have consistently struggled to put the ball in the net.
 

St. Juste

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Because people like you click and read it.
I would click an article saying Bobby Zamora wants to be as good as Messi and Ronaldo.

Doesn't make it news.

Nobody says we’re going to win it. Quarters would be an excellent showing for us and nobody would complain.

To be honest we should have high expectations bearing in mind the league we have and facilities we have for coaching. Whether we can deliver on that is another matter but the overall strategy has to be to go deep into Euros and World Cups.

As for Kane not being on Messi or Ronaldo’s level, he’s not but he’s a different type of striker. He’s not a talisman, false 9 or playmaker, he’s an old fashioned centre forward who is very good at what he does. If he gets the service he can score lots of goals. That’s what he does.

Impressive to see your command of Polish and Colombian Spanish is so good to know that those countries would never ever ever hype up their best players. I’m sure they don’t. Your memory is also excellent, plucking out random quotes from 2012 that mean sod all.

I’m looking forward to the next England game and I haven’t been able to say that for many years. Can’t we just enjoy the tournament without having sad acts twisting the knife in?
These factors have been in place for decades and England have consistently, and significantly, underperformed in international football.

You would think their fans and media would learn but it's abundantly clear they do not and go through the same cycle every 2 years.

It's amusing to watch. As I said before, maybe this is the year they break the cycle and don't embarrass themselves - it certainly can't go on forever.

Also, the quote was actually 2016. Surprised he hasn't said it yet this year.

Clearly, he was asked a specific question and answered it.

I doubt he rang the BBC to organise an interview so he could tell everyone that he wants to be as good as Messi or Ronaldo, which is all he has said by the way not that he is as good as them, but the aim is to reach those levels. In terms of goals scored and when you consider who he plays for, he keeps up fairly well I’d say.
I don't think you've actually looked at the article.

Certainly the BBC shouldn't be promoting it, but (as Kane has done a few times recently) he's said things that make him look a bit stupid.

This thread certainly dispels any notion of the humble England fans who have learned from previous tournaments. That is clearly not happening at all on here, or indeed anywhere else.
 

Bobbin'

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don't think you've actually looked at the article.

Certainly the BBC shouldn't be promoting it, but (as Kane has done a few times recently) he's said things that make him look a bit stupid.

This thread certainly dispels any notion of the humble England fans who have learned from previous tournaments. That is clearly not happening at all on here, or indeed anywhere else
I've read the article fully.

"Ronaldo is the best in the world, up there with Messi, but the challenge is there to be with them."

This forum has been littered with England fans saying that we won't win the tournament and the quarters is the realistic target so your last statement is way off the mark and completely irrelevant to the matter of Harry Kane's personal ambitions.
 

Luke_1884

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Honestly can't wait until the moment Southgate realises he's been deluding himself with his pep/klopp act. England ran themselves into the ground first 30 minutes - dumb as hell.
Says the guy who's pulling qualified, international managers tactics to pieces? We've just dominated a game against a tricky opponent who stepped into our box a handful of times yet it was dumb? If we get beat by a better Belgium team nobody is going to care, they're expected to win.

Absolutely loving the bitterness coming across, remind me to be like this the next time we fail to make a major tournament and Wales are there.
 

Abertawe

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Says the guy who's pulling qualified, international managers tactics to pieces? We've just dominated a game against a tricky opponent who stepped into our box a handful of times yet it was dumb? If we get beat by a better Belgium team nobody is going to care, they're expected to win.

Absolutely loving the bitterness coming across, remind me to be like this the next time we fail to make a major tournament and Wales are there.
And this is what we mean about weird Englanders. An objective critique you deem to be bitterness, like what.

This England team is all over the place and Southgate doesn't have a scooby. That's the reality. Come the knockouts you'll see it for yourself.
 

Abertawe

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England would have a chance if the 11 went something like.

Kane
Lingard. Sterling
Loftus-cheek. Henderson
Hogg
Delph Mee Tarkowski. Walker
Pope​
 

St. Juste

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I've read the article fully.

"Ronaldo is the best in the world, up there with Messi, but the challenge is there to be with them."

This forum has been littered with England fans saying that we won't win the tournament and the quarters is the realistic target so your last statement is way off the mark and completely irrelevant to the matter of Harry Kane's personal ambitions.
And that is one quote of many.

The quarters as a target would be the English football teams best achievement, by far, in the last 12 years.

Says the guy who's pulling qualified, international managers tactics to pieces? We've just dominated a game against a tricky opponent who stepped into our box a handful of times yet it was dumb? If we get beat by a better Belgium team nobody is going to care, they're expected to win.

Absolutely loving the bitterness coming across, remind me to be like this the next time we fail to make a major tournament and Wales are there.
Southgate is one of the least qualified coaches at the tournament.

I remember in the 2010 World Cup England fans bragging they had the best manager in the tournament. That isn't even close to accurate now, Southgate failed and was relegated at the one club job he had.

It's possible he's a great manager just looking to break out but it's very unlikely. England have the richest FA in the world, employing someone like Southgate should have been an absolute scandal.

He's media savvy but in any kind of objective managerial criteria is far behind his last three predecessors. Even McClaren have a far superior coaching background.

I'm surprised England fans aren't more concerned about their novice manager.
 

Nilsson

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Honestly can't wait until the moment Southgate realises he's been deluding himself with his pep/klopp act. England ran themselves into the ground first 30 minutes - dumb as hell.
We didn't run ourselves into the ground - as evidenced by our late winner. Our heads dropped slightly after conceding and we were probably more wary of their counter attack after that but we were still the team on top and very unlucky not to get a penalty. I think you're underestimating Tunisia, it took Spain 85 minutes to break them down a few weeks ago, they're a very well organised team. No one expected them to roll over.

We're a fairly average squad playing a decent style of football. It makes a nice change from what we're used to (having a good squad playing shite, rigid football).
 

Steve_Wafc

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Honestly can't wait until the moment Southgate realises he's been deluding himself with his pep/klopp act. England ran themselves into the ground first 30 minutes - dumb as hell.
Why are you so obsessed about the idea of Southgate failing? We won the first game against a tough organised opposition. No one has converted Southgate into Guardiola after this win and they probably never will. All he’s doing is giving young players the chance to express themselves and he’s fit them into a system the players clearly understand. You talk about Southgate as if Coleman was any different. He was also a manager who failed in club football and on paper one of the worst at the tournament, yet he had the respect of those Wales players, they played to a system and they had a bit of quality here & there and out of nowhere they reached the Semis. Were they one of the strongest teams at the tournament? Good lord no. But they had a belief that was instilled by Coleman. A belief that if they played to the best of their ability, that they could beat anyone. If England fail, it won’t be because Southgate is not the most tactically astute, it will be because the players don’t play to the best of their ability. The players look full of confidence and the team feels free (something it never does), there’s a freshness with this side, so it will be interesting to see if it can last beyond the groups. I for one enjoyed watching Wales, why can’t you do the same with England?
 

Benji

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Why are you so obsessed about the idea of Southgate failing? We won the first game against a tough organised opposition. No one has converted Southgate into Guardiola after this win and they probably never will. All he’s doing is giving young players the chance to express themselves and he’s fit them into a system the players clearly understand. You talk about Southgate as if Coleman was any different. He was also a manager who failed in club football and on paper one of the worst at the tournament, yet he had the respect of those Wales players, they played to a system and they had a bit of quality here & there and out of nowhere they reached the Semis. Were they one of the strongest teams at the tournament? Good lord no. But they had a belief that was instilled by Coleman. A belief that if they played to the best of their ability, that they could beat anyone. If England fail, it won’t be because Southgate is not the most tactically astute, it will be because the players don’t play to the best of their ability. The players look full of confidence and the team feels free (something it never does), there’s a freshness with this side, so it will be interesting to see if it can last beyond the groups. I for one enjoyed watching Wales, why can’t you do the same with England?
How dare you
 

Luke_1884

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And this is what we mean about weird Englanders. An objective critique you deem to be bitterness, like what.

This England team is all over the place and Southgate doesn't have a scooby. That's the reality. Come the knockouts you'll see it for yourself.
Eh?

We won a game where we played well, we said so, why not just leave it at that? You throw out opinions which aren't objective because that entails a bit of fact which quite frankly hasn't been the case.

"This England team is all over the place and Southgate doesn't have a scooby. That's the reality."

:lol: Objective aye. Throw away comments with no basis mate, give it a break.
 

Luke_1884

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Southgate is one of the least qualified coaches at the tournament.

I remember in the 2010 World Cup England fans bragging they had the best manager in the tournament. That isn't even close to accurate now, Southgate failed and was relegated at the one club job he had.

It's possible he's a great manager just looking to break out but it's very unlikely. England have the richest FA in the world, employing someone like Southgate should have been an absolute scandal.

He's media savvy but in any kind of objective managerial criteria is far behind his last three predecessors. Even McClaren have a far superior coaching background.

I'm surprised England fans aren't more concerned about their novice manager.
What's Southgate's inexperience compared to other coaches at the tournament got to do with anything? The remark you're replying to was comparing Southgate with the well known managerial powerhouse Abertawe.

It's quite clear from this thread that when the appointment was made the majority of us were pretty underwhelmed, I know I was. Of course his previous managerial experience is questionable, again I don't see where people have said opposite. Since his stint with the 21's he's done a good job and has started this tournament well in comparison with the last 4 or 5 we've had on the world stage. Have I missed something? Why can't we just be happy with that and leave it at that.

Nobody has said he's the next Fergie. At the same time there's no need to keep shitting on everybody's day, we know what he is so there's no need to keep banging the drum about it.
 

Pagnell

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Agree with that. I'm no Southgate fan as I've made clear but I'm not going to go on about it any more. Let's just see how far we get.
 
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I don't think the Southgate criticism is fair. Managing at club level is different to coaching an international side and I'd argue that the jobs almost require different skill sets. International coaching's always going to be a bit frustrating for the man in charge, I'd suggest, because he doesn't get to spend all that much time with the players so there are limits as to what he can do. You can see that by looking at WC matches that have already taken place where some of the favourites have looked quite disjointed and have had tough matches against unfancied sides, who're just executing the basics well - keeping organised and making themselves tough to break down. At international level, in a tournament environment, I think there's a hell of a lot of value in fostering a good team spirit and creating a sense of togetherness. These things sound mundane and trivial, but I think they're important when you're talking about squads full of people that have perhaps not spent a lot of time together who suddenly find themselves living in each other's pockets. You need them to feel happy and relaxed.

I thought at times we played some open, attractive football vs Tunisia. I don't think Southgate will always get it right and I think this WC will probably be a learning curve for him as well as some of our young players, but we have played some nice stuff under his reign so that alone is encouraging. Even in the second half on Monday, when we weren't playing particularly well against a team who were sitting deep, we were patiently passing the ball around (albeit not quickly enough), trying to create openings. At any time in the recent past we would have just repeatedly tried lumping it into the box. It's worth noting that we played some absolutely turgid football under Capello and Eriksson, both of whom were impeccably qualified, and had some highly talented players at their disposal.

Basically, he's highly familiar with the England setup, the players seem to like him and he seems a genuinely decent decent bloke so I don't see why fans shouldn't take to him. And yes, it might all end in tears (usually does with England, so it'll surprise no one if we crash out of the tournament early) but we'll just try to enjoy the ride while we're there.
 

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All the talk about Southgates inexperience, Zidane officially had none before taking on the biggest club in the world.
if you count his Castilla 2 year stint, where he was officially assistant, it's still less than GS.
3 CL titles later...
 

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