Van hits pedestrians in Finsbury Park

GodsGift

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,934
Likes
1,402
Location
Preston
Supports
Lincoln & Newcastle
Thread starter #1
One person arrested. Muslim Council say the van ran over worshippers as they left a mosque.
 

Aber gas

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,464
Likes
3,964
Location
Abergavenny
Supports
Bristol rovers
#4
Don't want to be classed as racist but something needs to be done. Perhaps the white community could do more about rooting out these extremists. Obviously it goes without saying that the perpetrators and their associates/ family should be immediately deported. A travel and immigration ban on white folk should also be a priority until we can figure out what's going on. We also need greater scrutiny of radical hate preachers. Internment of Hopkins and Robinson to start with and we'll see how we get on.
We can't go on like this. Something MUST be done.
 

Super_horns

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Messages
5,673
Likes
424
Supports
WATFORD
#5
No doubt will be claimed as some sort of "revenge" attack sadly as poor innocent people get hurt/killed once more.

Only heighten the tension some people on either "side" have.
 

BigDaveCUFC

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,418
Likes
482
Supports
Curzon Ashton....and Carlisle
#6
Would this be because the muslim community would not bury their beloved terrorists? As terrible as it is to see another incident maybe if that were case its a move by the muslim community that has finally hurt the terrorists.

oh no just seen a white man hitting muslims..........Not good as that could turn more muslims into terrorists.
 

AFCB_Mark

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Messages
3,136
Likes
964
Supports
A single unitary authority for urban Dorset
#10
And round and round we go, the cycle of pointless violence. Do we assume the intention was to kill (perfectly innocent decent good British Muslims) in the same manor that Islamist extremists have used. Some sick bastard.
 

shoddycollins

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,209
Likes
1,515
Location
In the Keith Curle Wonderland
Supports
Carlisle United
#12
And round and round we go, the cycle of pointless violence. Do we assume the intention was to kill (perfectly innocent decent good British Muslims) in the same manor that Islamist extremists have used. Some sick bastard.
I think given that witnesses have reported the man shouting 'kill all Muslims' and saying that he wanted police to shoot him now he had 'done his job' it's a fair assumption. It's not really possible to police this stuff either, if someone wants to kill others they will find a way there are plenty of things everyone has access to (such as vehicles) which can be used.
 

Stringy

Active Member
Messages
508
Likes
225
Location
Sheffield
Supports
Mansfield
#15
Wow, only thirteen responses so far on this forum to a terror attack. I would like to see comparative statistics for how attacks of similar scale - i.e. Westminster were doing after the same amount of time.

It seems very low.

I feel sickened by this, by the way. This doesn't feel like a terrorist attack to me, this feels like a hate crime against a minority group, which can be extremely dangerous if it is interpreted by anyone as a precedent rather than senseless violence committed by an extremist. It's the lack of outrage from the general public that I am finding quite terrifying.
 
Last edited:

Blitzballer

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,930
Likes
1,050
Location
Birmingham
Supports
Aston Villa
#16
Is this the same mosque that has been a hotbed for Islamic extremism. Sure I've seen it in the news previously.
Not defending this prick btw
 

Ian_Wrexham

Well-Known Member
Messages
541
Likes
725
Supports
Comrade Lineker's Revolutionary Junta
#18
Wow, only thirteen responses so far on this forum to a terror attack. I would like to see comparative statistics for how attacks of similar scale - i.e. Westminster were doing after the same amount of time.

It seems very low.

I feel sickened by this, by the way. This doesn't feel like a terrorist attack to me, this feels like a hate crime against a minority group, which can be extremely dangerous if it is interpreted by anyone as a precedent rather than senseless violence committed by an extremist. It's the lack of outrage from the general public that I am finding quite terrifying.
"Terrorism" and "hate crime" are questions of framing though? The motive of terrorism is to terrorise the people you hate which is also the motive of hate crime.

That said, I'm pretty ambivalent about labelling far-right racist violence as terrorism because I'm not sure what purpose that achieves. Part of the reason seems to be an attempt to disassociate non-state racist violence from police and state violence.

The attacks at London Bridge, and Manchester and Westminster were interpreted as an attack on "us" by an "other". Whereas the Finsbury Park Mosque attack cannot be reduced to such a binary. It would seem inappropriate to light up the Brandenburg Gate in the Union Jack to commemorate last night's victim when that's likely the standard of their killer. There's no (implied) homogeneous "us" to fearlessly carry on our daily lives when it's clear that "we" are not the people intended to be in fear of our lives.

In the same way that it's not terrorism when the British military action blows up 200 Iraqi civilians, or when the police round up dozens of entirely innocent muslims there's a deeply uncomfortable sense that these actions are carried out in "our" name. Perhaps it seems weird to extend solidarity to a group of people that, in other circumstances, "we" are happy to subject to horrific racist violence at the hands of the state.

I'm kind of shocked that a fascist would feel the need to do something like this, given that attacks of this nature are often an expression of political powerlessness, and mainstream politics at the moment is as racist as it's been for generations.
 

Stringy

Active Member
Messages
508
Likes
225
Location
Sheffield
Supports
Mansfield
#20
I mean it is a lot smaller in scale tbf, one death of a man who might well have died of a pre-existing condition.
I don't think that the smaller death toll detracts from the significance of this though. The event itself is unprecedented. Acts of terrorism, have of course, been committed in the past. However, as far as I can see, they are typically committed by the weaker party to achieve a set of political aims or realise a political belief (though I stand to be corrected on this).

If the definition of a terrorist applies "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims", then what happened was not simply terrorism but something stronger. The attacker was not attacking civilians generally, he was attacking muslims specifically. He was not aiming to achieve political aims. He already has political power. It was a cultural and ethnic attack.

The context, here, must be considered. Muslims are a minority group in the UK. Some sections of the media and the public can be strongly anti-Muslim and anti-Islam. The relationship is asymmetric. When terrorists who are also muslims attack whites, there is widespread outrage in our communities. When terrorists who are also white attack muslims, there is apathy in those same communities. The feeling isn't the same.

The authorities are saying that this was act of terrorism. Certainly true. But also I think we need to be clear here. This is an attack specifically against muslims, not just a "way of life", like we sometimes pass off terrorism. The man who committed this did not represent the majority of us. However, he did represent some anti-Muslim feeling in the UK. We know that hate crimes are occurring.

We absolutely must not accept apathy as the response to this atrocity. Do not shrug it off as a terrorist attack from a lunatic who does not represent us. We need to say that he does represent an uglier side to sections of our community. But equally, this side of our community is one that we also want to defeat.
 
Last edited:

Abertawe

Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Messages
3,378
Likes
1,272
Supports
Swansea
#23
I've no energy to give a fuck anymore. I'd be quite happy to sod off and go live on a deserted island for the rest of my days and free myself of this shit. This world really is the pits.
 

SALTIRE

Slàinte mhath!
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
13,294
Likes
2,828
Location
Speyside
Supports
A guid dram
#24
I've no energy to give a fuck anymore. I'd be quite happy to sod off and go live on a deserted island for the rest of my days and free myself of this shit. This world really is the pits.
Aye I'm contemplating moving to Harris and becoming a hermit.
 
C

Captain Scumbag

Guest
#25
I tend not to write much in these circumstances because there isn’t much to say about the event that isn’t obvious to the point of being banal (it’s shit; I wish it hadn't happened; I hope there aren’t reprisal attacks) and because the inevitable debate about media bias/framing and Britain being an irredeemably awful and racist shithole is one I rarely have the patience for.

The only half-substantial point I have is this: As far as I can piece together from the reports, witnesses held the suspect at the scene and, instead of wellying the fucker into a coma, handed him over to the police unharmed. There is something oddly reassuring in that. If nothing else, it indicates that some people have more restraint and civility than I probably would in the same circumstances.
 

Laker

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,706
Likes
658
Supports
Cambridge United
#26
Just horrific. I'm not surprised sadly, in a way I'm surprised something like this has not happened sooner.
 

St. Juste

Active Member
Messages
608
Likes
67
Location
Barra da Tijuca
Supports
St. Mirren
#27
"Terrorism" and "hate crime" are questions of framing though? The motive of terrorism is to terrorise the people you hate which is also the motive of hate crime.

That said, I'm pretty ambivalent about labelling far-right racist violence as terrorism because I'm not sure what purpose that achieves. Part of the reason seems to be an attempt to disassociate non-state racist violence from police and state violence.

The attacks at London Bridge, and Manchester and Westminster were interpreted as an attack on "us" by an "other". Whereas the Finsbury Park Mosque attack cannot be reduced to such a binary. It would seem inappropriate to light up the Brandenburg Gate in the Union Jack to commemorate last night's victim when that's likely the standard of their killer. There's no (implied) homogeneous "us" to fearlessly carry on our daily lives when it's clear that "we" are not the people intended to be in fear of our lives.

In the same way that it's not terrorism when the British military action blows up 200 Iraqi civilians, or when the police round up dozens of entirely innocent muslims there's a deeply uncomfortable sense that these actions are carried out in "our" name. Perhaps it seems weird to extend solidarity to a group of people that, in other circumstances, "we" are happy to subject to horrific racist violence at the hands of the state.

I'm kind of shocked that a fascist would feel the need to do something like this, given that attacks of this nature are often an expression of political powerlessness, and mainstream politics at the moment is as racist as it's been for generations.
I don't actually agree with your definition, as I think the "them" and "us" barriers are helpful and incorrect.

However, even by your definition the part emboldened is absolutely terrorism, committed by "us" against "them".

Far right terrorism should be treated by the media and the authorities as the same as Islamist terrorism - however, I don't imagine every member of this mans family have been rounded up.

Thank god terrorists seem to come from a background of underwhelming educational attainment - the impact of these attacks is far less severe than it could well be.
 

shoddycollins

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,209
Likes
1,515
Location
In the Keith Curle Wonderland
Supports
Carlisle United
#28
Terrorism is a word that acquired extra meaning, as if it is number one on a scale of evil rather than a specific thing. The public now expect it to be applied to any form of politically motivated and indiscriminate attack against innocent civilians which horrifies them, as if suggesting that something horrific isn't terrorism is suggesting it is less serious. I can understand why the politicians and media are being very clear to refer to it as an act of terrorism to make the point that terrorism isn't just Islamic extremism.

I would say the difference between terrorism and hate-crime is that terrorism is acts of violence designed to spread fear and bring about a reaction, such as independence for the Basque country, withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland or Russian troops from Chechnya. Whether terrorism involves hate varies. Some like the IRA viewed the civilians they killed more as collateral damage and took the pragmatic view that what they were doing was the best thing for their cause rather than being driven by hate, some like ISIS clearly do hate those that they target but are still trying to get a reaction.

Hate crime would be purely to satisfy the killer's own desire to cause suffering amongst those they hate, which might be political but isn't necessarily methodically designed to bring about a reaction, and usually they don't want to be caught as opposed to terrorists who depend on being caught to gain a platform.

So the Finsbury attack might not be terrorism, but it's a blurry line as only he knows what he wanted to achieve and it was clearly an attempted suicide attack. Other far-right actions seem more like terrorism though such as the murder of Jo Cox, the Soho bomber, Anders Brevik, the Oregon militiamen and the EDL guys caught in the process of manufacturing bombs. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter so much whether it was terrorism or not as much as it matters that some people among our midst are under the impression they are fighting a war.
 

sl1k

the one
Messages
1,182
Likes
648
Location
.
Supports
.
#29
Only a matter of time eh. Well for something on this scale at least, Islamophobic attacks do happen and take many forms but are a bit of an under the radar thing usually.

The Times: :( Jobless :( ‘lone wolf’ :( Darren Osborne held over attack on Finsbury Park mosque :(

^ :lol:

Anyways

There has been a worrying trend of some forms of Islamophobia being normalised over the years. Oh and it's not a 'Muzzie being all whingy about legit criticism' thing btw, just putting it out there. But whether it be via rhetoric of right wing politicians or columnists,
inflammatory bigots/far right types standing on the blurred lines between stirring/inciting hate and free speech, or sweeping generalisations used in 'Islam ain't a race, bra' kinda discourse - there has been an increasing toxicity being created in certain parts of society. It doesn't help that the political facets of the Islamist problem seem bewilderingly irrelevant, not a surprise when you got Murdoch and co steering the conversation though.

Some interesting reads:

Theresa May wants to fight Islamophobia in the UK.? You must be joking

Time for the UK's right-wing press to address its Islamophobia

Is this the same mosque that has been a hotbed for Islamic extremism. Sure I've seen it in the news previously.
Not defending this prick btw
Oh you probably just missed it amongst all that feelz for the victims and that, but:

Independant: Once the domain of 'hook-handed preacher of hate' Abu Hamza, the north London mosque has become an award-winning community asset seeking to divert the young away from extremism. And yet it continued to face Islamophobic harassment, even before Sunday night's attack
 

HertsWolf

Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Messages
3,431
Likes
2,080
Location
Hampshire and Africa
Supports
Wolves
#30
So the Finsbury attack might not be terrorism, but it's a blurry line as only he knows what he wanted to achieve and it was clearly an attempted suicide attack.
So the Finsbury London Bridge attack might not be terrorism, but it's a blurry line as only he knows what he wanted to achieve and it was clearly an attempted suicide attack.
So the Finsbury attack might not be terrorism, but it's a blurry line as only he knows what he wanted to achieve and it was clearly an attempted suicide attack.
So the Finsbury Manchester, etc, attack might not be terrorism, but it's a blurry line as only he knows what he wanted to achieve and it was clearly an attempted suicide attack.

When a bloke shouts "Kill Christians" and murders people, it's terrorism.
When a white bloke shouts "Kill Muslims" and murders people, it's a lone nutter and only he knows what he wants to achieve.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter so much whether it was terrorism or not as much as it matters that some people among our midst are under the impression they are fighting a war.
It may seem semantic, but it is important. Terrorism is an attack on random people going about their daily business and for a specific cause. The Finsbury Park terrorist must be considered as such simply because it shows to a wider community that there can be extremists in our midst.

There are frequent accusations that "they" (loosely, Muslim communities) don't object to these extremists in their midst, don't inform the authorities, are complicit in their silence. Well are we asking the same questions of people in Cardiff? Are we now treating the Welsh with suspicion? Are we going to harrass Welsh people in the street? Of course not. We have tended to demonise communities for the actions of an extremist.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
12,818
Messages
748,498
Members
4,203
Latest member
Redpelt