European Union Referendum

How do you see yourself voting?


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    175

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but no deal is looking much more remote now Cooper's bill won a majority and will probably be passed. We need to take up Tusk's offer of a 12month flexible extension. I don't see either May or Corbyn yielding enough to satisfy the other so it's probably May suggesting a series of indicative votes to try and find a solution.

What's happened to the indicative votes put forward by MPs ? Have they been dispensed with because May is potentially offering some?
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
I think she's accepted her deal is toast now. Unless parliament tells her otherwise I think she'll drop it. She did say that if it goes tits up with the Labour talks, which I think it will, she will put forward alternatives for parliament to vote on. Hopefully that will resolve the impasse sooner rather than later.

It's going to be interesting to see how forthcoming elections will pan out. Farage has already said he intends to cause havoc if he's elected to the EP. Then there's the forthcoming local elections at which I would assume the Brexit parties will be standing more candidates than they usually do to so that they can capitalise on the shitstorm we're in. What will this mean for Labour and the Tories.

For entertainment purposes I'm a member of The Conservative party's Facebook site and every time the official party herald any of their alleged successes unrelated to Brexit on there it's met with derision and open hostility from their grass root voters. I think they're going to suffer badly in the local election where UKIP and The Brexit Party stand.

Similarly with Labour, I think they're probably going to get a shoeing too. Although they're not the government I think they're seen as being complicit in frustrating the chances no deal.

What might mitigate all of this is the fact that Farage has set up his own party which in competition with UKIP might split the populist vote. Then again they might agree not to stand candidates against each other.
 
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Ebeneezer Goode

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Will May just try to keep pushing her deal in the hope somehow it gets accepted?
The only other option is No Deal or starting from scratch. The whole thing started with the EU basically saying to her 'hey, lets have a two stage negotiation where you agree to what we want in phase one and then we take a look at what you want in phase two' and she went along with it. In hindsight everyone should have been up in arms about the whole process a long time ago.
 

Fompous Part

Erstwhile Scumbag
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It should have been obvious that the only way – the ONLY way – to retain a decent position in the negotiations was to calmly but visibly make the necessary preparations for no deal. This should have started on 24 June 2016. Failing that, it should have started well in advance of issuing the Article 50 notice.

The government’s failure to do this exposed ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’ as nothing more than an empty bluff. The infuriating thing is that ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’, though much maligned, is a perfectly rational starting point in and of itself. It only becomes foolish if you don’t back it up – if instead your negotiation strategy is to pursue a deal – any deal – with a sense of embarrassment and desperation so palpable that the opposing side knows it can just pocket concession after confession and then ask for more.

Agreeing to the EU’s proposed sequencing is just one example of this fundamental problem, but of all the examples it was probably the most damaging.

The EU does not want a mutually beneficial deal. It never did. It never will. Our political class, on the whole, does not appear to have grasped this basic fact, even though it should be obvious to anyone armed with even the sketchiest knowledge of EU history. Instead, our negotiators pursued a strategy of being conciliatory in the hope that it would be reciprocated, despite all evidence indicating that it wouldn’t be.

As I’ve said before, the most generous interpretation attributes this to a fatal combination of naivety, ignorance and incompetence. The only other explanation is deliberate self-sabotage. The maddening thing is that the resulting shit show will be presented – mainly by anti-Brexit zealots in our political/media class – as prima facie evidence of the idea’s inherent wrongness and unworkability. And a lot of people who aren’t dyed in the wool Remoaners will believe them.

The overdue destruction of the Conservative Party (now so enfeebled and defeatist it can’t even defend Sir Roger Scruton against an amateurish NS hatchet job) is the only good thing that might come out of this.
 

Fompous Part

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It was a hatchet job, clear as day. I can’t help you if you can’t see it. Fuck, even the ‘journalist’ responsible has issued a half-hearted mea culpa for not presenting the quotes in their full context (he hid behind the excuse that Twitter requires brevity) and for posting a picture of him celebrating (true champagne socialist, our George!) on Instagram after the sacking.

Now, TBH, I don’t expect much better from The Staggers. Take away the occasional bit of penetrating analysis by Stephen Bush and the even more occasional gem by John Gray, and you’re left with a left-wing rag whose contribution to the world of political ideas barely exceeds that of The Beano. Confected moral outrage and PC click-bait is (mostly) what they do.

I expect better of the Conservative Party, though. A conservative party shouldn’t throw one of its own under the bus just because non-conservatives don’t like them (see your “dickhead” remark) or because left-wing activists cosplaying as journalists are engaging in opportunistic offence-taking.
 

Fompous Part

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It’s not the role of the defence to make the prosecution’s case for them.

You’ve called him a racist bigot. That’s name-calling, not a substantive case. Make a substantive case, and I’ll respond with point-by-point counterarguments.

If you can’t be arsed, I suggest we drop this and reserve the thread for Brexit-related whinging and discussion. This is a bit of a tangent anyway – a response to the least relevant part of my main post.
 

PuB

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You made the case that he wasn’t, and it was the result of a stich up.

I’m asking you to quantify that post.
 

Fompous Part

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I've already explained why I think it was a hatchet job (quotes presented out of full context to make them look worse; post-job celebration clearly indicative of malicious intent, etc.).

I imagine you think Douglas Murray is a racist too (he's conservative and doesn't think immigration is an unqualified good, and that's all the prima facie evidence one needs nowadays), but FWIW here he explains the problem with the quotations rather well.

And Scruton's response is here if anyone is interested. He swats away most of the criticisms better than I could.

The one he doesn't address, to his discredit, is his use of the phrase "Muslim tribes", which was careless and/or needlessly inflammatory, esp. when discussing immigration. Also a shame because his thoughts about Islam and Islamism are usually much more thoughtful and nuanced.

Again, happy to go back and forth on any specific points you want to argue the toss over in more detail, but I'm not going to do your job for you.

P.S. You used "quantify" incorrectly.

x
 

PuB

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I like the way you sneak in ‘Muslim tribes’ there and ignore the plainly offensive jibes of his previous comments.

I don’t really know who Murray is.
 

Fompous Part

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Oh, FFS.

I drew attention to what I consider the worst of the Scruton comments quoted in the NS piece. I also drew attention to the fact that he didn't address that specific controversy in his defence (which I linked to). I also wrote that the omission is to his discredit. And I did it in the longest paragraph in the post.

How the fuck is that sneaking it in? You're either being thick as fuck here or you're not arguing in good faith. I'd usually do you the courtesy of assuming the latter, but I don't know. This is so incredibly piss poor on your part.

As for the other stuff – i.e. what you refer to as "the plainly offensive jibes of his previous comments" – the WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF CONTENTION HERE is that I don't think they're plainly offensive. We disagree.

We can explore this disagreement in greater detail if you wish, but you have to put some fucking work in. How fucking hard is to fucking cut and paste some fucking quotes and state your fucking objections to them?
 

redjed

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latest polls are showing Brexit party in a commanding lead, somewhere about 39%,
with the "Change UK" on 3%.
People wanted a second referendum, they have it now, are they still going to parade through London protesting if the Brexit Party again dominate the election!
 

Gassy

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latest polls are showing Brexit party in a commanding lead, somewhere about 39%,
with the "Change UK" on 3%.
People wanted a second referendum, they have it now, are they still going to parade through London protesting if the Brexit Party again dominate the election!
How you think it’s the same is dillusional.

It’s like saying on a referendum:
Mays deal
Norway deal
Canada deal
New deal
No deal
Remain

Then remain winning the vote easily and remainders saying there you go, the country has spoken
 

PuB

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latest polls are showing Brexit party in a commanding lead, somewhere about 39%,
with the "Change UK" on 3%.
People wanted a second referendum, they have it now, are they still going to parade through London protesting if the Brexit Party again dominate the election!
Using that logic remain are winning by 61%.
 

Laker

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£100m to save British Steel but can’t due to EU state aid restrictions. when cheap Chinese steel is being dumped in the EU, it’s hardly surprising so many jobs are being lost.
 

Gassy

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Millions of EU citizens being denied their chance to vote today as well. Wonder which way they would have voted.

I also didn't receive my postal vote in Bratislava, guess which was I would have voted.

Same as last time with the referendum, thousands of Brits abroad didn't get their chance to vote.

What a disgrace of a government
 

jacobncfc

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£100m to save British Steel but can’t due to EU state aid restrictions. when cheap Chinese steel is being dumped in the EU, it’s hardly surprising so many jobs are being lost.
Have we tried? State aid rules could theoretically block us from doing so, but their track record suggests that it’s unlikely they’d do so. Without even mentioning that we were fundamental to blocking attempts to stop the flow of cheap Chinese steel into the EU in the first place. Sigh.
 

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