John Cena

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Let's go Cena, Cena Sucks, ect, ect.

But no, really, this is a thread I've been wanting to make for a little while now. Well, more specifically, since I was there at Summerslam and watched Cena have the match of the night with AJ Styles.

I basically just wanted to say, that's a classic match by any standards, but it's just a fucking regular day at the office for the guy. He does it all of the fucking time. So here's the question, and don't get mad when I ask it (I'm not even saying I agree with it, per se) and I just want to discuss how accurate (hell, if at all) it is... but,...

Is John Cena the best of all time?

Yeah, your initial reaction is "hahahaha, no", and I know, he "sucks" and that's a silly question and people like Shawn Michaels exist and whatever. But I just wanted to discuss the fact that...

He debuted in 2002 and won his first WWE Championship in 2005. And since that time he's been at the top and, by and large, he's given us more amazing matches than I can possibly think of. When I think of wrestlers who I consider to be "the best", for a lot of them I can count their classic matches on one hand. Guys like Chris Jericho, who we all know is brilliant... how many really, top, top matches has he had?

But with Cena, it's an embarrassment of riches. Over those 11 years that he's been at the top he's had loads of matches that are brilliant and really memorable... Just firing out a few from the top of my head:

Obviously, the recent example being Cena vs Styles from Summerslam this year. But in recent years he's been a part of a whole bunch of memorable matches... Seth Rollins last year, being destroyed by Lesnar the year before, a brilliant match with Daniel Bryan the year before that. He tends to lose all the time at Summerslam (a lot of the time, clean) but damn if he doesn't have great matches while doing so.

The 3 matches vs Kevin Owens last year were amazing.

Fighting Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand.

That other time he fought Lesnar, when Lesnar first came back.

A series of great matches with Randy Orton toward the end of 2009... in fact, a series of matches that helped get me back into WWE full time after 5 years of not really watching. The Iron Man and I Quit matches being particular highlights.

"Twice in a lifetime" matches VS The Rock. Maybe they weren't technical masterclasses and what not, but the sense of "big fight feel" during the build ups and the matches themselves are only achievable by having two men like that going head to head.

Some other very good main events of WM. Matches against Triple H and HBK were better than I remembered them being.

CM Punk at Money in the Bank. No more needs to be said. Actually, one more thing I'll add... a few months later they had another amazing match on Raw. Which featured like the only piledriver WWE has seen in over a decade... :eek:

Triple Threat against Seth and Lesnar at the Royal Rumble last year.

I've never actually seen a lot of them as well... I know he's supposed to have had an hour long classic with HBK that is often referred to as the best Raw match in history. And he apparently had a lot of great matches with Edge as well as the likes of JBL and Umaga.

And then there's the whole US title run, which I probably consider the greatest spell in that titles history since it's been in the WWE. Highlights include two absolutely amazing matches with Cesaro.

There are probably a bunch more I'm forgetting. But the man has a knack for having some brilliant matches. More than a guy who "can't wrestle" has, that's for sure.

Of course, it helps being in the spot he's in. Getting to have the big, main event matches all the time and given more time/effort/thought put into your whole career will lead to more chances to deliver these sorts of matches.

But really... who else is there who can compete? There are obvious names. Shawn Michaels, Triple H, The Undertaker, these people have had a whole boat load of classics too and have been doing it for a long, long time. But...

With Cenas 14 year career, it's been pretty much all at the top, all the time, with no slowing down. He has had injuries and a bit of time off, but he's been there for most of it. But using who I consider the best of those other three names as an example:

HBK: Probably Cena's biggest competition, but looking at his career... it spanned an impressive 26 years from debut to retirement. But of those 26 years... he won his first WWE title in 96, which is 12 years after he debuted. And then, of course, 2 years later he got injured and was out for 4 years. And then upon coming back in 2002 he was around for 8 more years... so he only really had 10 years doing it at the very top of the roster. But of course, like Cena, he had more classic matches than you can count. And he could have a great match against anybody... stick Cena against The Big Show and I'll be hitting the fast forward button for sure.

So yeah... for 12 years Cena has been delivering us amazing matches. Is he the best of all time? Debatable. But the very fact that it's debatable is interesting enough, to me. Loads of brilliant matches, pretty much non stop for over a decade. If you disagree that he's the best (As I said, I'm not even saying I agree really, I just want to discuss it), how close is he? Is it fair to discount his name from the discussion altogether? Or is a in with a genuine shout?
 

iesty wfc

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do your top wrestlers list and we will find out ;)

On a serious note though, i do think that there is a wrestler who has defined each era. for the 70s it was Sammartino. 80s Hogan. 90s and 00s there is an overlap between Hart/Michaels and Rock/Austin, and since then its been Cena.

weird to think really that even though Undertaker has had a 25 year run in the WWE that he was never 'the man' that the company focussed around

it is so hard to definitely say he is the best ever but he would certainly be in a top 10 list
 

Oaf

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do your top wrestlers list and we will find out ;)

On a serious note though, i do think that there is a wrestler who has defined each era. for the 70s it was Sammartino. 80s Hogan. 90s and 00s there is an overlap between Hart/Michaels and Rock/Austin, and since then its been Cena.

weird to think really that even though Undertaker has had a 25 year run in the WWE that he was never 'the man' that the company focussed around

it is so hard to definitely say he is the best ever but he would certainly be in a top 10 list

Ha, I will do that top wrestlers thing at some point. I guess I'm still sort of hoping for a couple of late lists, because I've still not had a massive amount... gonna have to bite the bullet and go ahead at some point though.

But yeah, Cena has certainly been the face of the recent era. But even of those faces of the company... Cenas run has been longer than most, plus I'd say he's probably had more great matches than most of them as well. Just another example of where I'm going with this whole idea behind this thread. That mix of being a face of the company as well as a guy who, on a regular basis, is likely to give you the match of the night.
 

RavenBish

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There's a top wrestlers list thing? Have I not done it, cos I will.


Yes btw, Cena is absolutely in the discussion for best ever. I'd have him in the top 5 and only HBK and Austin are above him comfortably.
 

Oaf

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There's a top wrestlers list thing? Have I not done it, cos I will.


Yes btw, Cena is absolutely in the discussion for best ever. I'd have him in the top 5 and only HBK and Austin are above him comfortably.

PLUG:

http://www.onefootballforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/1ffs-top-50-wrestlers.11660/

But you say you'd have Austin and HBK above Cena comfortably... if we were to base it on a match to match basis, then yeah, they're in with a shout. But, for me, the longevity of Cena's career (particularly compared to Austins) has to count for something. And to think, he's probably got a while left in him yet... and as his match with Styles showed, he's showing no signs of slowing down yet either.
 

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He shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Austin. Cena's run on top hasn't managed half the success that Austin achieved while on top, and Cena's been at it much longer.
 

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Also he is boring.
 

Oaf

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He shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Austin. Cena's run on top hasn't managed half the success that Austin achieved while on top, and Cena's been at it much longer.

I guess if you're taking overall impact into it, then there are few who can compete with Austin, purely because he led the charge of the winning team during the most successful spell in the history of pro wrestling. Hogan helped carry Wrestling into the main stream but Austin took it to new heights... and while yeah, Cena's been at the top for a long time, he's not really progressed it in the way that those other two have. Not sure if that's entire his fault or just being in it at a wrong time... I guess the question is, was it the backstage decisions/direction of wrestling/"attitude" that made the attitude era where the wrestlers were simply able to thrive because of this new attitude, or was it the wrestlers, best personified by Austin, who brought about this change in the first place?

Would be interesting... if Cena had been around for the Attitude Era, how would have he done? And likewise, if Austin had been around for the PG era, how would have he done?

But in terms of in ring, for me Cena takes the edge purely because of his 12 years at the top vs Austins 4 or so. If they'd both had the same amount of time then yeah, I'd possibly give it to Austin.

Also he is boring.

Is a man who's had that many great matches really boring though? I certainly wasn't bored while he was fighting Styles at Summerslam, and neither were the other 15 thousand people in attendence. In fact, it was the highlight of the night by quite some bit. And as I said, the guy does it all of the time.

The way he's booked was a bit boring, for sure, with the whole super Cena thing. But I can't put that on Cena himself.
 

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I guess if you're taking overall impact into it, then there are few who can compete with Austin, purely because he led the charge of the winning team during the most successful spell in the history of pro wrestling. Hogan helped carry Wrestling into the main stream but Austin took it to new heights... and while yeah, Cena's been at the top for a long time, he's not really progressed it in the way that those other two have. Not sure if that's entire his fault or just being in it at a wrong time... I guess the question is, was it the backstage decisions/direction of wrestling/"attitude" that made the attitude era where the wrestlers were simply able to thrive because of this new attitude, or was it the wrestlers, best personified by Austin, who brought about this change in the first place?

Would be interesting... if Cena had been around for the Attitude Era, how would have he done? And likewise, if Austin had been around for the PG era, how would have he done?

But in terms of in ring, for me Cena takes the edge purely because of his 12 years at the top vs Austins 4 or so. If they'd both had the same amount of time then yeah, I'd possibly give it to Austin.



Is a man who's had that many great matches really boring though? I certainly wasn't bored while he was fighting Styles at Summerslam, and neither were the other 15 thousand people in attendence. In fact, it was the highlight of the night by quite some bit. And as I said, the guy does it all of the time.

I can only speak for myself but he bores the hell out of me 99% of the time - in fact I fast forward pretty much every promo he makes because they are beyond parody now. He has certainly been a part of some excellent ppv matches and entertained me during those but I wouldn't have him anywhere near my top ten, twenty etc etc of all time. It's not even about his perceived lack of technical ability because I don't particularly mind that - it's to do with the character he plays; it's been as dull as dishwater for years.
 

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I can only speak for myself but he bores the hell out of me 99% of the time - in fact I fast forward pretty much every promo he makes because they are beyond parody now. He has certainly been a part of some excellent ppv matches and entertained me during those but I wouldn't have him anywhere near my top ten, twenty etc etc of all time. It's not even about his perceived lack of technical ability because I don't particularly mind that - it's to do with the character he plays; it's been as dull as dishwater for years.

A lot of people don't really like Cena's promo work, which always fascinates me. He's about as comfortable with a microphone as anybody who's ever held one and, in my view, he's one of the best speakers of all time. And the proof in the pudding for me is how, on a regular basis, he can turn a crowd who start out booing him into one that are actually cheering him by the time he leaves, purely on the strength of his promo work. It's phenomenal how often he can do that.
 

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I guess if you're taking overall impact into it, then there are few who can compete with Austin, purely because he led the charge of the winning team during the most successful spell in the history of pro wrestling. Hogan helped carry Wrestling into the main stream but Austin took it to new heights... and while yeah, Cena's been at the top for a long time, he's not really progressed it in the way that those other two have. Not sure if that's entire his fault or just being in it at a wrong time... I guess the question is, was it the backstage decisions/direction of wrestling/"attitude" that made the attitude era where the wrestlers were simply able to thrive because of this new attitude, or was it the wrestlers, best personified by Austin, who brought about this change in the first place?

Would be interesting... if Cena had been around for the Attitude Era, how would have he done? And likewise, if Austin had been around for the PG era, how would have he done?

But in terms of in ring, for me Cena takes the edge purely because of his 12 years at the top vs Austins 4 or so. If they'd both had the same amount of time then yeah, I'd possibly give it to Austin.



Is a man who's had that many great matches really boring though? I certainly wasn't bored while he was fighting Styles at Summerslam, and neither were the other 15 thousand people in attendence. In fact, it was the highlight of the night by quite some bit. And as I said, the guy does it all of the time.

The way he's booked was a bit boring, for sure, with the whole super Cena thing. But I can't put that on Cena himself.

Funnily enough Austin got over in the PG era before it became mature because his gimmick was fresh and cool. The company basically changed to build around him. Cena got over when the product was still producing mature content, without that rapper gimmick he wouldn't have made it to where he did. The company didn't build behind that gimmick though because Cena wasn't popular enough to carry it for the business to be successful, so he had to change to the company's direction. I think that in itself details a massive distinction.
 

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A lot of people don't really like Cena's promo work, which always fascinates me. He's about as comfortable with a microphone as anybody who's ever held one and, in my view, he's one of the best speakers of all time. And the proof in the pudding for me is how, on a regular basis, he can turn a crowd who start out booing him into one that are actually cheering him by the time he leaves, purely on the strength of his promo work. It's phenomenal how often he can do that.

I think there is a massive difference between being comfortable on the mic and actually being someone who makes good promos. Cena is comfortable on the mic but the actual content of his promos is awful and almost always boils down to "some people love me, some people hate me but no one can deny I work hard for this company and I'm here day in day out blah blah blah" gradually building to him shouting and his veins popping out of his neck. It's the same thing every time and, for me at least, it got boring about a decade ago.
 
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Cena is a difficult pro-wrestler to judge because of the schism in the WWE audience (younger fans versus the older fans who stuck around after the Attitude era) and because his divisiveness represents that schism better than anything. With the younger fans, he's an amazing success and exactly what Vince wanted him to be: the clean cut, virtuous babyface around which to build a more family friendly product. A great role model and an absurdly durable cash cow. To the older fans, he's a complete anathema – a guy they love to rag on because he's a walking, talking reminder of how little Vince McMahon cares about what they think.

I'm not for a second suggesting any of this is Cena's fault, but having such a divisive superstar as the guy for almost a decade hasn't been a good thing. You have a top babyface who gets loudly booed by at least half the audience wherever he performs. You have numerous other guys (some of them very talented) who have failed to get over as heels because the smarks, motivated first and foremost by anti-Cena animus, will cheer Cena's opponent regardless of how heel-ish he behaves. From a basic storytelling PoV, then, the fundamentals are broken. This is one reason reason why they've struggled to make new stars. One reason of many, but perhaps one of the most significant.

He has been in some excellent matches, especially in the last 5-6 years. He's quite unusual insofar that most pro-wrestlers peak (in terms of in-ring performance) in their late 20s and early 30s, and usually because they've suffered so much wear and tear by their mid 30s that their body can no longer do many of the things it was once capable of. Because Cena has that mutant-like durability, he's actually a better wrestler now (approaching 40) than he was 10 years ago. He can still work at a pace that would put guys in their early 20s to shame, but he’s doing it with 15+ years of experience. I suppose the negative counterargument is that most of his best matches have been with people who are/were much better in-ring performers than he is/was: Punk, Bryan, Styles, Rollins, Owens et al. Not saying he was carried; however, I do think a great wrestler can work a great match with lesser talents, and I remain unconvinced that Cena can.
 

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Superb wrestler but I wouldn't class him as the best, he would be in the top 10 though.

Always thought his Character and the way he has been booked has harmed him and made him unpopular but there is no doubting his wrestling ability.
 

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