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What the hell is going on in that forum? Some of the bile that has been allowed in there is, frankly, unreal.

I'm all for voicing opinions, but holy hell is this:

Well it was due, it has been almost a week after all since the last attack...

We are witnessing the slow death of Europe and replacement of its people. Hard to watch.

He would of been given house and income here the daft twat.

That’s exactly right.

Terror isn’t replacing the people of Europe. 146 dead in 2016 isn’t going to have a noticeable effect. But terror is done for different reasons.

What is replacing the European people is birth-rates and demographics.

France won’t be France much longer (a few decades).

And what we see now is probably only the start of the troubles that Europe will face in the next 50-100 years.

Yeah and there is Muslims over here since the 50's and they have let there children radicalise into scum.

Dont see your point Silky.

It's ok for muslims to hate the west for interfering but it's wrong to hate muslims for killing in Europe.

you and your lefty traitors off here

It’s hard to be fair.

There are many moderate Muslims in The West.

But their children live on the internet (like most kids) and can get influenced by the extremist elements of the Religion of Peace.

The idea is the problem. What the Quran states is the problem.

How do you defeat an idea? And a book over a billion people live to read?

Very hard.

Step one is to protect your borders from invasion.

Of course European politicians have a clear agenda for the continent and a clear dislike of “natives”.

First step in defence of Europe is to get rid of the politicians in power to date and elect ones willing to defend the people of Europe.

I think a temporary ban on Mosques would be a good idea, we should refuse to open individual mosques until the none extremists tell us who the dangers are in each particular mosque...........if they are so religious they wouldn't hesitate to grass these scum up.

also like plastic Liverpool fans have half/half scalves.........mosques should share a christian chuurch and not have there own place.......then the vicar could listen in and catch them planning shit.

Indeed.

I don’t understand why the left want a secular Europe to become religious. I know the left hate Christianity and I suppose in their mind they see Islam as something to end Christianity once and for all.

But Christianity has ended itself. Or is very close to doing so. Most Europeans are secular. Most Europeans do not care about religion, especially the youth. They might be classed as Christians but won’t have read a word of the Bible in their lives.

Religion should be a private matter. No meeting places. No places of worship. This is what Europe needs to push towards. And yet it’s exactly the opposite of where the left is taking us.

OK, fair point. Perhaps the terminology I should be using is atheist. Europe is changing from a secular, atheist society into a religious one. I don’t understand why the left is pushing this.



Well it wouldn’t happen overnight. Stop building new places of worship is a good start.



For religious matters yes. It’s not helping society – whichever religion – for youngsters to be forced to listen (get brainwashed & radicalised) by caveman nonsense that never made sense, let alone in today’s society. Make it a private matter.

I'd say people don't trust Muslims anymore in general.........i mean when do you here of a muslim group outing radicals?

It's a shame because the ones i know are very nice indeed.

Mmmm lying to people who are supposed to be in authority....doesn't bode well does it.

Probably trying to get a doctors appointment.

Another 360 since I posted....u got a spare room Silky?

Should be brought in here I reckon, I think you should get points off your license for running over a smackhead or cash.

Racist for hating the monkeys of Gibraltar?.....you sad little worm.

Another 1000 to house from today....

Another 8000 this week , wonder how many are Isis fighters?


6,000 since i posted last week, anyone know where they are all living?

Shut up Shane

Ta

considered acceptable now?

Perhaps time for a dedicated News & CA mod, seeing as a lot of it seems incredibly unfiltered, and edgy at best, outright racist at worst?
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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Obvious trolling and personal attacks can be removed I think, but no need to delete anything else. If people want to voice a stupid opinion and announce to the world they're an idiot then why stop them.
 

Renegade

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I generally take the same position as EG when it comes to good ideas drowning out bad ideas and bigoted comments being exposed for what they are. I think that works better in the real world than on an Internet forum (this forum at least), there is no societal pressure to reevaluate your views in anonymity and you are free to continue trolling or ignore your own bigotry if you have it. The same debates occur over and over without any progress and it disengages people from contributing because the quality of debate is so petty - I assume people find it almost pointless to interject. A mod would help when there are obvious troll attempts. 50% of the problems with the forum would be solved if you just gave JT a special key to the Premier League forum and nothing else. He's kinda fun there.
 
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AFCB_Mark

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Obvious trolling and personal attacks can be removed I think, but no need to delete anything else. If people want to voice a stupid opinion and announce to the world they're an idiot then why stop them.

Is usually my take on it. Personal abuse isn't acceptable, but voicing opinions that make yourself look a tit aren't against the law. Where the latter escalates into trolling and derailing otherwise decent debate then yes it'd need addressing. It's a judgement. But if you spend more than a few minutes on say twitter or the BBC opinions pages, you'll find far more crap. I don't think we do too bad. But I'll be first to accept that it's not perfect - I do on a semi regular basis have to clean up threads and have words with people, which is unfortunate. And I'm not in there as often as a dedicated mod might be.

Regarding a dedicated mod - I know that has been discussed by my fellow admins recently, I'll try seeing where they're at with it.
 

johnnytodd

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Is usually my take on it. Personal abuse isn't acceptable, but voicing opinions that make yourself look a tit aren't against the law. Where the latter escalates into trolling and derailing otherwise decent debate then yes it'd need addressing. It's a judgement. But if you spend more than a few minutes on say twitter or the BBC opinions pages, you'll find far more crap. I don't think we do too bad. But I'll be first to accept that it's not perfect - I do on a semi regular basis have to clean up threads and have words with people, which is unfortunate. And I'm not in there as often as a dedicated mod might be.

Regarding a dedicated mod - I know that has been discussed by my fellow admins recently, I'll try seeing where they're at with it.
Unfortunately i don't have the time to moderate it Mark, thanks for the offer though.

xx
 

johnnytodd

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I generally take the same position as EG when it comes to good ideas drowning out bad ideas and bigoted comments being exposed for what they are. I think that works better in the real world than on an Internet forum (this forum at least), there is no societal pressure to reevaluate your views in anonymity and you are free to continue trolling or ignore your own bigotry if you have it. The same debates occur over and over without any progress and it disengages people from contributing because the quality of debate is so petty - I assume people find it almost pointless to interject. A mod would help when there are obvious troll attempts. 50% of the problems with the forum would be solved if you just gave JT a special key to the Premier League forum and nothing else. He's kinda fun there.
Yeah and we're sick of the sympathisers on here walking on peoples graves.

Should be ashamed of yourselves.
 

Hooped Wizard

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Get rid of anyone who is racist or has fascist/communist sympathies. These ideologies always have very nasty people behind them.
 

sl1k

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There's letting people voice stupid opinions (which I absolutely don't have a problem with, "free country" and all that), but then there's giving dickheads a free pass to troll and fish with outrageous statements with no pressure to back up what's being said. It derails, makes no contribution of substance, and just puts me off from bothering.

I can respect a person without rating his views, so long as he shows me the good will that is genuinely engaging with the topic. But there are sad, pathetic lads with tiny testicle (RIP brother ste) who wanna talk shit, hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. You, soft lads, are pieces of shit. You know who you are.

Thanks.
 

johnnytodd

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There's letting people voice stupid opinions (which I absolutely don't have a problem with, "free country" and all that), but then there's giving dickheads a free pass to troll and fish with outrageous statements with no pressure to back up what's being said. It derails, makes no contribution of substance, and just puts me off from bothering.

I can respect a person without rating his views, so long as he shows me the good will that is genuinely engaging with the topic. But there are sad, pathetic lads with tiny testicle (RIP brother ste) who wanna talk shit, hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. You, soft lads, are pieces of shit. You know who you are.

Thanks.
This is a great post and some very valid points. On the other side of the coin though there is a massive difference of being able to vent your frustrations to like minded football fans to KILLING PEOPLE REGULARLY.

I know which side i am on.

xx
 

shane

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Though I don't contribute that regularly, the politics section is probably my favourite area of the forum and as sl1lk says, the trolling has become really tedious. By all means, post a controversial opinion but the constant posting of one sentence designed to annoy becomes very tiresome.
 

johnnytodd

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Though I don't contribute that regularly, the politics section is probably my favourite area of the forum and as sl1lk says, the trolling has become really tedious. By all means, post a controversial opinion but the constant posting of one sentence designed to annoy becomes very tiresome.
says the man who totally ignored a lovely member of the public who said good morning.
 
C

Captain Scumbag

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Most of the ‘offending’ posts quoted are by one poster. To put it mildly, that poster is either a bona fide cretin or a third rate troll. Anyone who argues with him expecting a valuable exchange of ideas is probably dumber than he is.

It’s better to ignore posters like that (I actually do have Johnny on “ignore”, as I have various others in the past). If everyone took that approach, the idiots would probably get bored and leave. In a more active forum their nonsense would get lost in the mix.

It’s not within any one person’s power to “derail” a thread. That requires others to react. Unfortunately some posters don’t have the restraint required to just ignore someone or something they find annoying. They also can’t be arsed challenging the same idiotic or ‘offensive’ opinions over and over again, so their preferred solution is to get the annoying posters banned.

When you really boil it down, what the complainers want is not more civilized debate (most of holier-than-thou usual suspects can be very snarky and abusive when the mood takes); they just want a safe space to play in, a forum where they won’t be bothered by people or opinions they don’t like. Forums that indulge that sort of thinking almost invariably end up being tedious echo-chambers, i.e. something completely opposite to the sort of liberal pluralism that the internet, perhaps uniquely, allows.

Ultimately the politics forum is what you make it. If you focus your attention on twats like Johnny then it will be insufferable. If you stick twats like Johnny on "ignore" and debate people you think worth your time and effort, it’ll be fine. It can be very good actually.
 

The Paranoid Pineapple

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Hmm, not sure I agree with that take. Don't get me wrong, I'm kind of with you on the general sentiment but I don't think the "safe space to play in, a forum where they won't be bothered by people or opinions they don't like" can be applied to very many regulars in the N&CA section.

You correctly identify that most of the "offending" posts are made by one poster; surely that rather begs the question as to why he is still here? Everyone knows he's a troll/an imbecile. People have, I think, made a genuine and concerted effort to ignore his bile. He's been suspended on a number of occasions. It doesn't make a jot of difference. And sure, people can ignore him. People do ignore him, but there comes a point where it just all becomes a bit farcical and the persistent trolling becomes a barrier to one's enjoyment of the site and makes people disinclined to post there. That's how I feel; I would suggest the forum is not as active as it could be because others feel similarly. Ultimately, wading through pages of COMPLETE DRIVEL becomes EXCEPTIONALLY TEDIOUS after a while.

I would also suggest that, whilst I'm generally all for relaxed approach to such matters, the moderation of the forum has been extremely reactive. Whenever anyone has behaved like a COMPLETE BERK, becoming personally abusive and insulting (not all that common tbf), it does seem to take an AGE (after anyone who's anyone has complained) for a green or a red to so much as LIFT A FINGER.

Verdict? D-
 

PaulHaddock

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Hmm, not sure I agree with that take. Don't get me wrong, I'm kind of with you on the general sentiment but I don't think the "safe space to play in, a forum where they won't be bothered by people or opinions they don't like" can be applied to very many regulars in the N&CA section.

You correctly identify that most of the "offending" posts are made by one poster; surely that rather begs the question as to why he is still here? Everyone knows he's a troll/an imbecile. People have, I think, made a genuine and concerted effort to ignore his bile. He's been suspended on a number of occasions. It doesn't make a jot of difference. And sure, people can ignore him. People do ignore him, but there comes a point where it just all becomes a bit farcical and the persistent trolling becomes a barrier to one's enjoyment of the site and makes people disinclined to post there. That's how I feel; I would suggest the forum is not as active as it could be because others feel similarly. Ultimately, wading through pages of COMPLETE DRIVEL becomes EXCEPTIONALLY TEDIOUS after a while.

I would also suggest that, whilst I'm generally all for relaxed approach to such matters, the moderation of the forum has been extremely reactive. Whenever anyone has behaved like a COMPLETE BERK, becoming personally abusive and insulting (not all that common tbf), it does seem to take an AGE (after anyone who's anyone has complained) for a green or a red to so much as LIFT A FINGER.

Verdict? D-
Drivel, you say?






:hesk:
 
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Captain Scumbag

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@ The Paranoid Pineapple

When I say people should ignore him, I don’t mean they should just tolerate him. I mean they should actually use the “ignore” function. I do this, and because I can’t see his content he doesn’t impinge on my enjoyment at all. He might as well not exist.

Given the availability of this option, I just don’t see how Johnny (or any other poster) can single-handedly deter other members from posting. He certainly isn’t stopping others from posting. The basic format of an online forum doesn’t allow him to interrupt other people’s discussions. It’s generally very easy to ignore people on forums (much easier than, say, in group discussions offline). It’s even easier when the functionality exists for each user to effectively erase an annoying poster's content from the board.

It would be interesting to hear if others agree with you on this, though. The N&CA forum does seem to have slowed down a bit. I think it’s a bit weak to blame Johnny for this, but I accept I may be in a minority on this. As a general point, I think it's naive to enter a politics forum expecting (or hoping) not to be annoyed by other people. Most people feel political disagreement in a way that they don't when the argument is about other subjects. Political discussion brings out the worst in most of us.

A more valid concern, if I may briefly switch sides for a moment, is how non-members (especially first-time visitors) might be affected by the shitty content in the N&CA forum. After all, those people don’t have the “ignore” function; and it’s not hard to imagine someone visiting for the first time, reading Johnny’s pish and deciding TFF is not for them. I’m more sympathetic to that line of argument, though I think people tend to go off general impressions rather than base their judgement on 1-2 people. Most people understand that all forums have their idiots.

As for sluggish mod/admin responses, I don’t know. Genuinely, I don’t know. It’s a bit of a non-issue for me because it never occurs to me to report anyone. You’re certainly not the first to make this criticism and I generally respect your judgement, so there probably is something to it. At the same time, I think it should be remembered that in the early days of 1FF there was near unanimous agreement that we wanted light-touch moderation. Perhaps that needs to be understood in its historical context (an understandable reaction to TFF being ruined by the Admin monkeys being autocratic pricks) and some kind of rebalancing is required. It’s a tough one, though.
 

sl1k

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I don't need nor care to hang around in spaces (on the internet or otherwise) where a huge part of my identity is openly and regularly violated. If the shoe were to be the on other foot, It's less 'liberal pluralism' and more 'hate preacher', 'radical', 'fundamentalist.
 
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Captain Scumbag

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^
Islamic faith is a chosen identity characteristic rather than an immanent one like a race, gender, sexuality or disability. It’s a belief system – one of the many people may subscribe to in order to impose order and meaning on chaos. Narrative is comforting. No one, deep down, enjoys their narrative(s) being questioned or undermined. When others misunderstand or misrepresent one’s beliefs in a way that seems ‘violating’ (or disrespectful, to use a slightly more prosaic adjective) then it’s upsetting. And annoying.

This, IMO, is the main reason why most people find pluralistic political debate so difficult. It’s why most people choose to ‘debate’ politics in spaces where they won’t encounter any serious disagreement. To enjoy political debate seems to me a form of masochism. Most people who seek out disagreement don’t do so because they enjoy it but because, rightly or wrongly, they see it as bettering in some way – something, perhaps, that guards against intellectual complacency in the same way that regular exercise (which no one in their right mind actually enjoys) guards against obesity.

My political views are in the minority here. If I wanted to avoid disagreement and/or annoying misrepresentations of my views then there are plenty of other places I could go (no Silkymans endlessly prophesying post-Brexit doom on Breitbart or Guido!). Same for you, I guess. Just substitute “religious” for “political”. You certainly don’t need to be here, and perhaps you don’t care to; nonetheless here you are, almost every day, making contributions that other people value.

Is Jonathan of Todd the world's foremost critic of Islam? Of course not. He is, most likely, an unhappy git who gets his kicks annoying (or trying to annoy) others. I’m not writing any of this to defend him or to argue that engagement with him is in any way worthwhile. On the contrary, I think engagement with him is a complete waste of time. I do, however, think the desire to create nice safe spaces by banning annoying posters is a slippery slope. Once that habit is formed it usually ends up being abused. There are better alternatives IMO.

Ultimately it’s for you to decide how best to use your time, but FWIW I would prefer you to stay, debate people worthy of your time and make use of the “ignore” function where required.
 
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Ian_Wrexham

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Get rid of anyone who is racist or has fascist/communist sympathies. These ideologies always have very nasty people behind them.

to lump communists in with fascists - i.e. compare those who want humanity's emancipation with those who want its extermination - is disgusting.
 
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Captain Scumbag

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A provocative opinion, but one our wizard friend is entitled to express. Possibly some of those who experienced communist emancipation in China, Cambodia and the Soviet Union would agree with him.

If it offends you to an intolerable degree, please consider using the "ignore" function.

#Scumbag4Mod
 

Red

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Most of the ‘offending’ posts quoted are by one poster. To put it mildly, that poster is either a bona fide cretin or a third rate troll. Anyone who argues with him expecting a valuable exchange of ideas is probably dumber than he is.

It’s better to ignore posters like that (I actually do have Johnny on “ignore”, as I have various others in the past). If everyone took that approach, the idiots would probably get bored and leave. In a more active forum their nonsense would get lost in the mix.

It’s not within any one person’s power to “derail” a thread. That requires others to react. Unfortunately some posters don’t have the restraint required to just ignore someone or something they find annoying. They also can’t be arsed challenging the same idiotic or ‘offensive’ opinions over and over again, so their preferred solution is to get the annoying posters banned.

When you really boil it down, what the complainers want is not more civilized debate (most of holier-than-thou usual suspects can be very snarky and abusive when the mood takes); they just want a safe space to play in, a forum where they won’t be bothered by people or opinions they don’t like. Forums that indulge that sort of thinking almost invariably end up being tedious echo-chambers, i.e. something completely opposite to the sort of liberal pluralism that the internet, perhaps uniquely, allows.

Ultimately the politics forum is what you make it. If you focus your attention on twats like Johnny then it will be insufferable. If you stick twats like Johnny on "ignore" and debate people you think worth your time and effort, it’ll be fine. It can be very good actually.
I never thought I'd see you use the word twat.
 

sl1k

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Islamic faith is a chosen identity characteristic rather than an immanent one like a race, gender, sexuality or disability. It’s a belief system – one of the many people may subscribe to in order to impose order and meaning on chaos. Narrative is comforting. No one, deep down, enjoys their narrative(s) being questioned or undermined. When others misunderstand or misrepresent one’s beliefs in a way that seems ‘violating’ (or disrespectful, to use a slightly more prosaic adjective) then it’s upsetting. And annoying.

While it's true that is an an adopted form of identity, I don't think this characterisation fully appreciates the weight of it in a Muslim person's psychological structures. When you are raised a particular way (Arabic classes as children, observing Ramadan with family, forming character and moral compass through Islamic philosophies/examples of the prophet pbuh) it's more a real lived experience rather than just something in one's head, or some cool book I happened to read.

When someone misrepresents or disrespects Islam or Muslims, it is that lived experience and culture that's being attacked - not too dissimilar to the feeling of racism. You can blatantly see it in the language used. I probably can do more to actively avoid it, but then I think why the hell should I have to.

FWIW, I've always stuck around because there are good people like yourself in this community who I do care to give time to. But I shouldn't need to accept the unacceptable.

Let's consider a real life scenario. A particular pub I frequent. Good diversity of mostly cool people. The owners are opportunistic and shady, but the regulars make the establishment. However, every single time I go in there I have to accept that the owners, and by extension everyone in this place deems it fine to have a couple idiots stand in the corner shouting some of the most nastiest crap that directly violates my very existence. Fair do's it's only a couple idiots, but it's not a place I'd be wanting to go back very often. I don't put people on ignore in real life, I confront them. Unfortunately on the internet, I can't.
 
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Ian_Wrexham

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Let's consider a real life scenario. A particular pub I frequent. Good diversity of mostly cool people. The owners are opportunistic and shady, but the regulars make the establishment. However, every single time I go in there I have to accept that the owners, and by extension everyone in this place deems it fine to have a couple idiots stand in the corner shouting some of the most nastiest crap that directly violates my very existence. Fair do's it's only a couple idiots, but it's not a place I'd be wanting to go back very often. I don't put people on ignore in real life, I confront them. Unfortunately on the internet, I can't.

Good analogy that.
 

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