North v South

[Luke Imp]

I'm not sure on the larger pool of players thing, given that the NLN has been known to include teams as southern as Essex

But they'd still recruit from the south. It's their location that's put them in the NLN and that wouldn't.

Why does the north do better for attendances? Cultural tradition? Less mobile population? Fewer clubs per population centre, or more clubs at lower levels?

Maidstone are well attended, but probably not better than other similar sized towns. Very few of my workmates or neighbours attend games, although more than a few identify as fans and post support on Facebook.

Fewer clubs, I think. I don't know that for a fact just a gut feeling.

I can imagine London way on is saturated with clubs.

 

[doveranddover]

Many think Dover are a "bankrolled" club because of the Parmenter family/company money.

 

[B2TF]

We're talking clubs who have gone up.

Sutton, Dover, Braintree, Welling and now Maidenhead. None of these sides are 'bankrolled', but competed, or will compete. Granted, Braintree and Welling are now back down, but Sutton and Dover are still there and don't look like going down anytime soon. Maidenhead will also be fine.

You're using Forest Green as an example, but it took them what, four years to get promotion with their money?

It took us four years to come back up.

Just because a club is spending money, it doesn't mean they're just going to piss all over everyone.

Being closer to London, Essex, etc. Gives the southern clubs a big advantage in signing players, with or without money. Unless you're Dover and you're miles from anywhere, except France.

I'm not buying that, sorry. Take Dover- they've been top 8 and above since they arrived: on average gates of 1200 and less? Can't be done- there's money going in from somewhere. Northern clubs too, or most of them, recruit from East coast Yorkshire to West coast Lancs & Merseyside and the North East- at least 10-15 million in that catchment area (5 million in Yorkshire alone), in many cases players who've been through the youth systems of the biggest clubs (Everton, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Leeds, Newcastle, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Sheff Utd) and have often played in the first teams a few times. The whole point about Forest Green and the rest IS the money- they would not be able to compete at all, without it.

 

[B2TF]

Why does the north do better for attendances? Cultural tradition? Less mobile population? Fewer clubs per population centre, or more clubs at lower levels?

Maidstone are well attended, but probably not better than other similar sized towns. Very few of my workmates or neighbours attend games, although more than a few identify as fans and post support on Facebook.

Because the clubs we're talking about have spent the vast majority of their existence in the Football League, are based in large urban areas and are supported accordingly.

 

[B2TF]

Many think Dover are a "bankrolled" club because of the Parmenter family/company money.

Here is the news- they ARE!

 

[Farleigh]

Dover have performed miracles year after year.

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/sport/dover-chief-vows-to-walk-91895/

But let's not pretend they're not bankrolled.

 

[LeWhites]

I'm not buying that, sorry. Take Dover- they've been top 8 and above since they arrived: on average gates of 1200 and less? Can't be done- there's money going in from somewhere. Northern clubs too, or most of them, recruit from East coast Yorkshire to West coast Lancs & Merseyside and the North East- at least 10-15 million in that catchment area (5 million in Yorkshire alone), in many cases players who've been through the youth systems of the biggest clubs (Everton, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Leeds, Newcastle, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Sheff Utd) and have often played in the first teams a few times. The whole point about Forest Green and the rest IS the money- they would not be able to compete at all, without it.

We are not bankrolled to the extent that we have a competitive budget in the Conference.

We are obviously bankrolled, as all clubs are, as football clubs are not profitable (as I'm sure you know more than most). Our playing budget is definitely nowhere near top 10 and not even in the same league as Forest Green, Eastleigh, Ebbsfleet etc.

Our secret is Chris Kinnear who is, IMO, the best manager in the league, and one who favours cheap, hungry, young players over expensive has-beens.

 

[LeWhites]

Dover have performed miracles year after year.

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/sport/dover-chief-vows-to-walk-91895/

But let's not pretend they're not bankrolled.

Completely false article. Parmenter has never said he would walk, he said he would stop investing (ie we wouldn't have had our shiny new stand).

 

[B2TF]

We are not bankrolled to the extent that we have a competitive budget in the Conference.

We are obviously bankrolled, as all clubs are, as football clubs are not profitable (as I'm sure you know more than most). Our playing budget is definitely nowhere near top 10 and not even in the same league as Forest Green, Eastleigh, Ebbsfleet etc.

Our secret is Chris Kinnear who is, IMO, the best manager in the league, and one who favours cheap, hungry, young players over expensive has-beens.

Funny that, because ours isn't and has turned a profit every year since it reformed.

 

[Aberstone]

But they'd still recruit from the south. It's their location that's put them in the NLN and that wouldn't.


Fewer clubs, I think. I don't know that for a fact just a gut feeling.

I can imagine London way on is saturated with clubs.

The Isthmian League is proof of this - 72 clubs and over half of them are based in Greater London.

 

[LeWhites]

Funny that, because ours isn't and has turned a profit every year since it reformed.

It's easy to make money when you don't pay your creditors

 

[B2TF]

It's easy to make money when you don't pay your creditors

No it isn't, try it and see.

 

[Joe.]

I'm not buying that, sorry. Take Dover- they've been top 8 and above since they arrived: on average gates of 1200 and less? Can't be done- there's money going in from somewhere. Northern clubs too, or most of them, recruit from East coast Yorkshire to West coast Lancs & Merseyside and the North East- at least 10-15 million in that catchment area (5 million in Yorkshire alone), in many cases players who've been through the youth systems of the biggest clubs (Everton, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Leeds, Newcastle, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Sheff Utd) and have often played in the first teams a few times. The whole point about Forest Green and the rest IS the money- they would not be able to compete at all, without it.

They have to pick up the scraps that other clubs don't want. Of course, without Parmenter they probably wouldn't be where they are, but are you seriously trying to say those clubs I mentioned are paying big wages?

You're delusional.

 

[Sparrow]

All of 'part-time' Dover's players are postmen and milkmen and play for free, simply because of their love for the game.

 

[Josh Butler]

Weirdly in the north, teams promoted from the Npl tend to do very well at least in the first year. Yet promoted sides from the southern Premier except bankrolled Brackley have struggled. Corby, Leamington, Oxford city except one year, Stortford. Lowestoft came up from the Ryman league and struggled

 

[Swedes]

Weirdly in the north, teams promoted from the Npl tend to do very well at least in the first year. Yet promoted sides from the southern Premier except bankrolled Brackley have struggled. Corby, Leamington, Oxford city except one year, Stortford. Lowestoft came up from the Ryman league and struggled

I'd guess that it comes down to part-time players not fancying the extra travelling involved in the North, hence the disruption to a previously successful side. The sides based in the traditional northern heartland would be more likely to keep a side together than one on the periphery.

Even if you look at this season's national league, there are 10 sides in and around the London and surrounding commuter belt area - it's much more attractive to part-time players if there aren't that many long journeys to do. Not many part-time players up north would fancy 13 trips a season to clubs further south than Oxford.

 

[LeWhites]

All of 'part-time' Dover's players are postmen and milkmen and play for free, simply because of their love for the game.

Our only truly "part time" player was taken off our hands by you.

We're only part time in that we train in evenings and players are on 42 week contracts.

 

[Joe.]

Weirdly in the north, teams promoted from the Npl tend to do very well at least in the first year. Yet promoted sides from the southern Premier except bankrolled Brackley have struggled. Corby, Leamington, Oxford city except one year, Stortford. Lowestoft came up from the Ryman league and struggled

Gosport and Concord also did relatively well when coming up to the South. Gosport now relegated and struggling in the Southern mind.

Poole and Hungerford also had very good first seasons last season, and I feel Bognor will have a respectable first season also.

Just to counteract that the North do better.

 

[Silver Stone]

Weirdly in the north, teams promoted from the Npl tend to do very well at least in the first year. Yet promoted sides from the southern Premier except bankrolled Brackley have struggled. Corby, Leamington, Oxford city except one year, Stortford. Lowestoft came up from the Ryman league and struggled

We were promoted straight through the Conference South.

 

[LeWhites]

We were promoted straight through the Conference South.

Took us 5 years but we made the play offs 3 of those 5 years and never finished below 7th.

Bizarrely I think the season we went up was our worst points tally

 

[Farleigh]

If you look at the founding Conference members from 1979, the majority (with sub-1000 crowds) remain firmly part-time non-league and were muscled out by much bigger clubs from above and below, with 1000s of fans. Instead of a league for progressive clubs, it has become a graveyard of failed clubs who don't want to be here. Fair summary?

 

[Master D]

I think the North is a better league, with better quality football and bigger clubs with more supporters.

For some reason, however, teams from the South seem to cope with promotion far better than the North.

Is right la.

 

[Farleigh]

Early attendance figures for National North show twelve clubs averaging over 1000 fans and a total of six (?) ex-league clubs.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/national-league-north/attendances

No ex-league clubs in National South and all average attendances below 1000.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/national-league-south/attendances

You could conclude some northern football clubs are particularly badly run and unable to recover from adversity.

 

[Southern Shayman]

Not sure if someone's covered it before, but the reasoning seems pretty obvious. With the size of sides and money being thrown around in NLN, the part time (and full time) NL northern teams are being gazumped on wages.

Salford as a prime example of that - half their side would get in to most NL teams.

On the other side, I don't think there's a team breaking 1000 attendances in the NLS and no obvious money bags clubs, so the southern NL teams have first pick.

 

[Farleigh]

Talking of northern powerhouses, how have FC United ended up lower than North Ferriby in the league? And is it true NFU are being wound up?

 

[B2TF]

The fan-owned model soon hits the buffers when they have to start spending serious money, even on essentials like a new stadium.