Rooney returns...

[St. Juste]

People are going on about Rooney's 'lifestyle choices' and comparing him to Gazza are more than a bit over the top. Getting a bit fat on holiday and having a few pints after an England game arent exactly self destructive behaviours on the level of the likes of Paul McGrath, Maradona etc.

And for all these debates, I dont know how anyone can say Rooney hasnt reached any potential. Won every club honour there is with United, broke their scoring record, broke England's scoring record and their most capped outfield player. Short of winning something with England, he really cant have done much more.

As I've said before, I'd be surprised if Rooney manages as much in his 30s as Gazza did.

Fair comment on the Vegas thing. Though you can blame some of that one some pretty appalling management from Hodgson. He knew full well that Rooney was suspended for the first 2 group games, and was already under pressure not to pick him at all. Any manager with any authority would have given him a regime to make sure he would still be fit when he hadnt played a proper game in so long before that 3rd group game. Rather than no having the bollocks to give strict instructions to his star players, and then blindly defending it when it came back to bite him afterwards. But Hodgson and England is a whole other story. You can make a case for simply dozens of players who havent ever looked quite as impressive for England as they did for their clubs, even players like Lampard and Gerrard who were otherwise pictures of professionalism and fitness.

Lampard - yes, Gerrard, absolutely not.

The number of strikers hitting their peak after the age of 30 would be drastically outnumbered by those that hit it before.
Not to mention the number of them that have been playing solidly since 16.
Injuries see off shit loads before the 30 mark.

That may well be the case, but there aren't many supposedly top strikers who are effectively released at the age of 31. That is how far he has fallen.

Michael Owen is the only other one I can think of, and he had terrible injury problems.

There's a difference between hitting your peak (as many do), still playing well (as even more do) and completely falling off a cliff form and ability wise as Rooney has managed.

 

[Smally]

Torres & Shevchenko nose dived like Rooney at around 30

 

[spireite]

Torres & Shevchenko nose dived like Rooney at around 30

It's a rare striker who keeps on scoring at the highest level into his 30's I think

 

[St. Juste]

Torres & Shevchenko nose dived like Rooney at around 30

Torres is 2 years older than Rooney and still scoring in the latter stages of the Champions League.

He isn't the player he was, obviously, but still playing and contributing at a higher level than Rooney.

Shevchenko - yes, although he did move country at 30 which would have been a significant factor. Rooney didn't move, and has been severely regressing since 29.

It's a rare striker who keeps on scoring at the highest level into his 30's I think

Not really, consider the examples in my previous post.

Even if they aren't scoring they are still contributing. Mandzukic, a player who is clearly not as talented as Rooney, is still playing well at the highest level and scored in the Champions League final - there's only about 7 months between them.

There's a few key points here, Rooney has regressed quicker than the average player does (certainly the average top player). His professionalism, or lack thereof, has been an issue throughout his career and lesser players would not have got away what he did - this has clearly impacted on his longevity. Not many players go through the same fall from grace that Rooney has.

Maybe he will prove us all wrong at Everton but I can't see it, I think he's finished. I'd be very surprised if he passes 10 goals in the league, for example. Being penalty taker might help him in this respect, admittedly.

 

[Smudge]

As I've said before, I'd be surprised if Rooney manages as much in his 30s as Gazza did.

Come off it, Gazza left Rangers at 31 to play for Middlesbrough in the Championship. The last time in his career that Gazza played more than 30 League games was in 1989/90, when he turned 23, pre the Spurs Cup Final injury. He played a total of 38 games in 2 years with us in all competitions. Gazza was finished long before he was 30. That injury in 91 of course set him back, but the majority of what followed was down to his own choices. The well documented antics of the whole squad pre Euro 96 obviously, and he was then dropped from England for good before France 98, when he was, guess what, 31.

As for all this talk of regression, people are talking about one bad season. We are very quick in football to write players off as finished. Mourinho decided fairly early on at United last season that he didnt fancy Rooney and wanted to move on from him. It's the first season in his career since his last with us where he has been in and out of the team. That takes some getting used to, and needs a player to adjust his game, which all players, no mater who they are, will do when they get older. Look at Giggs. It's a bit like saying he was finished at 33 because he couldnt run rings around full backs anymore. He wasnt finished, he just wasnt the same player anymore and had to adapt and do things differently to carry on. Players are allowed to have a dodgy season, and Rooney has for the most part been fit all his career, only suffering straightforward injuries such as the broken foot in 2006. He has never played less than 37 club games in a season in his career, playing more than 40 in all but 4 of the 15 he has played.Nearly 650 club appearances at 31, like others have said, we can sit here all day and compare him to all these strikers, everyone is different, but very few for a start have played quite so much as he has from such a young age. Ibrahimovic didnt go pro until he was 18 for a start, and despite being 4 years older than Rooney, has made less than 100 appearances more than him.

Torres is 2 years older than Rooney and still scoring in the latter stages of the Champions League.

He isn't the player he was, obviously, but still playing and contributing at a higher level than Rooney.

Dreadful comparison. Torres happens to be a reserve at currently a much better team than Rooney at the minute. How can Rooney score in the latter stages of the Champions League when United arent playing there? Torres has been in decline since about 2010, injuries always played a part, but when he was fit, he was dynamite until then. His last full season at Liverpool, he scored 22 in 32 in all competitions. He has only matched that total once since, and he played in 64 games to score those 22 goals in 2013. Torres had not long turned 26 at the end of that last full season at Liverpool, and he has gone down ever since.

 

[Bilo]

Ibrahimovic didnt go pro until he was 18 for a start, and despite being 4 years older than Rooney, has made less than 100 appearances more than him.

Ibrahimovic is the downright opposite of Rooney, he was a late bloomer in many ways. However, and this is true for so many players: if you break through at 16, you're more likely to decline early in your career. Most players will have a similar range of peak performances, six or seven years when they're at their best. Whether this is 28-34 as in Zlatan's case or 20-26 as in Rooney's case doesn't make that big a difference, but the clearest correlation for me is when you break through. I think it was Ferguson who said something along the lines of "if you play like you're 23 when you're 18, you'll play like you're 33 when you're 28". It's not strictly true of course but there's certainly something in it. Torres is another standout example of early break through, early decline. What both Zlatan and Drogba have in common is that they broke through very late, as did Henry in comparison to what he eventually would achieve.

So if you want to talk about Rooney's professionalism and potential longevity, you'd want to compare him with others who broke through at 16 or 17. You'll struggle hard to make it seem like he didn't make the most out of his talents. Not that it will stop St Juste of course.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

[QUOTE, he would never have been moved to accomodate players like Hernandez, Tevez, Berbatov (themselves good, not great, strikers)..[/QUOTE]

Rooney was never moved out of his best position to accommodate these players, only Ronaldo. Tevez occasionally started on the bench even before Berbatov came, and often did after. Berbatov again was benched for Hernandez and then Hernandez for Rooney. The key theme here is Rooney started no matter what and aside from when Ronaldo was here he was the main man.

Rooney could play as the second striker just as well as the number 9. The only reason he played behind them or occasionally out wide that we had more strengh in the striker position than in midfield.

 

[St. Juste]

Come off it, Gazza left Rangers at 31 to play for Middlesbrough in the Championship. The last time in his career that Gazza played more than 30 League games was in 1989/90, when he turned 23, pre the Spurs Cup Final injury. He played a total of 38 games in 2 years with us in all competitions. Gazza was finished long before he was 30. That injury in 91 of course set him back, but the majority of what followed was down to his own choices. The well documented antics of the whole squad pre Euro 96 obviously, and he was then dropped from England for good before France 98, when he was, guess what, 31.

As for all this talk of regression, people are talking about one bad season. We are very quick in football to write players off as finished. Mourinho decided fairly early on at United last season that he didnt fancy Rooney and wanted to move on from him. It's the first season in his career since his last with us where he has been in and out of the team. That takes some getting used to, and needs a player to adjust his game, which all players, no mater who they are, will do when they get older. Look at Giggs. It's a bit like saying he was finished at 33 because he couldnt run rings around full backs anymore. He wasnt finished, he just wasnt the same player anymore and had to adapt and do things differently to carry on. Players are allowed to have a dodgy season, and Rooney has for the most part been fit all his career, only suffering straightforward injuries such as the broken foot in 2006. He has never played less than 37 club games in a season in his career, playing more than 40 in all but 4 of the 15 he has played.Nearly 650 club appearances at 31, like others have said, we can sit here all day and compare him to all these strikers, everyone is different, but very few for a start have played quite so much as he has from such a young age. Ibrahimovic didnt go pro until he was 18 for a start, and despite being 4 years older than Rooney, has made less than 100 appearances more than him.

Dreadful comparison. Torres happens to be a reserve at currently a much better team than Rooney at the minute. How can Rooney score in the latter stages of the Champions League when United arent playing there? Torres has been in decline since about 2010, injuries always played a part, but when he was fit, he was dynamite until then. His last full season at Liverpool, he scored 22 in 32 in all competitions. He has only matched that total once since, and he played in 64 games to score those 22 goals in 2013. Torres had not long turned 26 at the end of that last full season at Liverpool, and he has gone down ever since.

And left Middlesborough to play for Everton in the Premier league.Looks like Rooney has also been dropped from England at 31.

The proof will be in what Rooney achieves going forward. I don't think he's had one poor season, I think he's had several, and his regression has been obvious for years but managers haven't had the ability or courage to drop him.

So, why is it a dreadful comparison? Torres is quite a bit older, but a reserve for a much better side than United (and Everton). Er, okay, seems he is doing a lot better then - which is my point. Yes he has regressed, but has stayed at the top level, and is still contributing and scoring goals at the latter stages of the Champions League. Rooney was effectively released by a side who weren't good enough to be in the Champions League.

The criticism of Ibrahimovic is bizarre, I'd be surprised if Rooney matches his career appearances, and he certainly won't come close to his scoring record or trophies won.

So if you want to talk about Rooney's professionalism and potential longevity, you'd want to compare him with others who broke through at 16 or 17. You'll struggle hard to make it seem like he didn't make the most out of his talents. Not that it will stop St Juste of course.

If that is the route you want to go down, there is very few players to compare him too.

Paolo Maldini got in the AC Milan side at 16 and stayed until 41 - and made his pro tennis debut 8 years after retiring. He would go firmly in the column of having greater longevity than Rooney.

James Milner, a player who is no where as good as Rooney, started his career at 16 and is still playing regularly.

I'm struggling to think of many more examples - happy for these to be suggested

There seems to be two narratives at play here

1) Rooneys career didn't reach the heights it could have done, he regressed significantly at a relatively early age and this is at least partly down to his lifestyle choices.

2) Rooney was a top professional, and the only reason he is being released at 31 is because he started at 16. Oh, and he's naturally fat.

Fair enough if you believe in part 2. Interestingly, another player who had to contend with genetics was 'fat' Frank Lampard - he did a far better job and played for longer at a higher level.

[QUOTE, he would never have been moved to accomodate players like Hernandez, Tevez, Berbatov (themselves good, not great, strikers)..

Rooney was never moved out of his best position to accommodate these players, only Ronaldo. Tevez occasionally started on the bench even before Berbatov came, and often did after. Berbatov again was benched for Hernandez and then Hernandez for Rooney. The key theme here is Rooney started no matter what and aside from when Ronaldo was here he was the main man.

Rooney could play as the second striker just as well as the number 9. The only reason he played behind them or occasionally out wide that we had more strengh in the striker position than in midfield.[/QUOTE]

Yes, he was undroppable, and this won't have helped him. He has never had an incentive to push himself or improve - everything was given to him on a plate. If you have a star player you build the team around him, this never happened to Rooney, they shunted him because he couldn't deliver consistently as a striker.

 

[JimJams]

Torres being at Atletico is a poor example of someone staying at the top. For anyone that follows the goings on there they'd know that on his return Simeone wasn't particularly interested in retaining his services after his first season and it's more like a security blanket keeping him because of the club's uncertainties in the transfer market that he's been afforded the luxury of staying. It was reported that Simeone didn't want to keep him in 2016, but the situation has forced it. Why do you think he keeps getting given 1 year rolling contracts?

He's not staying because he's good enough. He's staying because they can't replace players. Even shit ones.

 

[St. Juste]

Torres being at Atletico is a poor example of someone staying at the top. For anyone that follows the goings on there they'd know that on his return Simeone wasn't particularly interested in retaining his services after his first season and it's more like a security blanket keeping him because of the club's uncertainties in the transfer market that he's been afforded the luxury of staying. It was reported that Simeone didn't want to keep him in 2016, but the situation has forced it. Why do you think he keeps getting given 1 year rolling contracts?

He's not staying because he's good enough. He's staying because they can't replace players. Even shit ones.

At 31 Torres left AC Milan and joined Atletico, a team regularly competing in the latter stages of the CL.

At 31 Rooney left Man Utd and joined Everton, a top half Premier League with no Champions League experience.

There is elements of sentimentality in both, but no CL team would touch Rooney with a bargepole, Atletico were keen on Torres and he has delivered for them in big games.

That's the difference.

 

[JimJams]

He's delivered in the big games? Aside from a brace in the Copa del rey in a 2-2 draw against Real, no he hasn't. He did score against Barca in the CL I suppose before getting himself sent off.

 

[SALTIRE]

Think he scored in the Madrid derby last year as well iirc.

 

[JimJams]

Nope, and they played them 4 times last season.

 

[SALTIRE]

Maybe it was the previous season then. He definitely scored at the Bernabeu.

 

[St. Juste]

He's delivered in the big games? Aside from a brace in the Copa del rey in a 2-2 draw against Real, no he hasn't. He did score against Barca in the CL I suppose before getting himself sent off.

I think you answered your own question to be honest.

I think it is clear Torres has declined, technically he was never as good as Rooney and relied a lot on pace which he lost following injury. However, despite declining he has still managed to contribute at the highest level - something Rooney has not managed.

Again, that's the difference.

 

[Nilsson]

I think you answered your own question to be honest.

I think it is clear Torres has declined, technically he was never as good as Rooney and relied a lot on pace which he lost following injury. However, despite declining he has still managed to contribute at the highest level - something Rooney has not managed.

Again, that's the difference.

Since Torres returned to Atletico he's scored 28 goals in 115 games, Rooney in that time has scored 37 goals in 117 games. Torres has had the benefit of playing for a far superior side and more stable club in that time, under the same manager.

I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility that Rooney would've made a contribution to a top side over the past 3 seasons a la Torres at Atletico had he been playing in similar conditions.

 

[Stevencc]

He scored today in a friendly against Gor Mahia.

Anyone who said or thought that Rooney's days at the top were over has got some serious egg on their face right now.

 

[Bilo]

If that is the route you want to go down, there is very few players to compare him too.

Paolo Maldini got in the AC Milan side at 16 and stayed until 41 - and made his pro tennis debut 8 years after retiring. He would go firmly in the column of having greater longevity than Rooney.

James Milner, a player who is no where as good as Rooney, started his career at 16 and is still playing regularly.

I'm struggling to think of many more examples - happy for these to be suggested

There seems to be two narratives at play here

1) Rooneys career didn't reach the heights it could have done, he regressed significantly at a relatively early age and this is at least partly down to his lifestyle choices.

2) Rooney was a top professional, and the only reason he is being released at 31 is because he started at 16. Oh, and he's naturally fat.

Fair enough if you believe in part 2. Interestingly, another player who had to contend with genetics was 'fat' Frank Lampard - he did a far better job and played for longer at a higher level.

Fucking hell mate how can you live your life in such an extreme black and white?

First of all, I was referring to strikers, as has everyone in this thread up until, I suppose, you couldn't think of a striker so you moved the goalposts. Secondly, no, you can't split this argument with many different perspectives into one alternative that you word as well as you can and another alternative where you try to be condescending (towards no one, mind, since no one argues that point).

An alternative route to this, for future reference, is to go something along the lines of "I see your point but I disagree with this and this". Your way of posting is just so incredibly unlikeable and I say that as genuine constructive feedback because you do know your shit, you just consistently find a way of saying it in the most annoying way imaginable. Essentially, stop pretending that you are 100% right and everyone else is 100% wrong all the time, it's tedious and it'll never lead anywhere.

 

[JimJams]

You're not your.
I'll let you figure out where.

 

[Bilo]

You're not your.
I'll let you figure out where.

I write your four times. Your life, your point, your way, your shit. Which do you suggest I change to you're?

Oh wait. Hah!

 

[merseyboyred]

Rooney, the English Raul.

Must say Everton really have had a good transfer window for a team chasing 7th place.

Seriously, adding good players but a level below ones from the teams above, whilst losing your main goalscorer to the team that finished above you. Seen nothing to suggest that they'll really be able to push up amongst those 'top 6' without one of them performing below expectations.

I did actually appreciate this, cheers.

Liverpool English also differentiates between the singular & plural 'you'!

 

[JimJams]

Time will tell if Keane and Pickford are a level below. Kkllaasseenn is an unknown quantity at this level. Rooney and possibly Gylfi are the only ones that you'd say have shown to be not the standard of the others in the top 6. And that just requires a bit of a resurgence. Sandro again is tough to call.
Everton could have made very shrewd signings. They could all turn to shit.
Walsh worked magic for us with some signings, but we also had a fair few that didn't work out. Mendy, Musa and Slimbob were all identified by Walsh the season before he left.
Shame for us he didnt get Everton to buy them before us once he'd moved.
But he's also the guy in charge of the Mahrez, Kante and Vardy signings. So y'know, nobody thought much of them when they first came.

 

[epic73]

Kkllaasseenn is an unknown quantity at this level.

48 goals and 32 assists for Ajax in 154 matches in various competitions since 2013, and he's still 24. Obviously the Premier League is a higher level than the Eredivisie, but I'd say Klaassen will do well for Everton.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Seems like this return has come to a premature end, with Rooney now off to MLS in the summer, DC United specifically.

That must be a large sum off Everton's wage books.

 

[Benji]

I worry for Everton now. How are they going to replace those 10 minute cameos and ineffective centre midfield performances?

Hopefully DC can finally find out which midfield role Wayne can seamlessly slot into when his best days are behind him.

 

[epic73]

Rooney could play in goal and he'd still be the best player in 9/10 MLS games.

 

[Pagnell]

Although, to be fair, the fact he wouldn't need to move to stop 95% of shots going in helps with that.

 

[Pagnell]

Before his move to the USA Wayne Rooney went to visit Alex Ferguson in hospital to see how he was doing. For the ten minute visit he managed to string a couple of sentences together in an almost coherent manner. Apparently Alex was really impressed with Wayne's progress.

 

[epic73]

Although, to be fair, the fact he wouldn't need to move to stop 95% of shots going in helps with that.

Dunno if that's a comment on the size of Rooney or the quality of MLS shooting.

 

[Benji]

Rooney could play in goal and he'd still be the best player in 9/10 MLS games.

In my opinion, goalkeeper is not his best position. However it would accentuate his ability to pass the ball to unmarked wingbacks when under no pressure.