The Bury summer signing uberthread. WARNING - Contains tinpot material

valefan16

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I think this needs to be a wake up call to the EFL if as looks increasingly likely Bury FC lose their place in the EFL.

I think they have to carry out the punishment as they’ve had the procedure and will need to set a standard, however they and football clubs in general need to look at how things are done and set better restrictions to avoid this happening again.

You’ve had Portsmouth, Blackpool, Vale, Charlton, Bolton, Bury, Coventry to name a handful in a danger due to financial or poor ownership and I guess it was a matter of time before one went. Maybe due to the amount of clubs who’d sailed close to the wind and gone through admin and recovered there became a belief that in the EFL a club would always survive these days but this has shown that the current regulations are not good enough.
 

Spire1866

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I’ve been made aware that they will be out of business by Friday by someone in the FSF I truly hope the Bury fans can get a Phoenix club up and running
Do Bury fans have plans in place for this?

What does Dale gain from the club going to the wall? Does he own the ground? Can he do what he wants with the land? Can't see what his motivations is other than the obvious
 

valefan16

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See Smurf is allegedly sniffing around... be better to go bust now, get the phoenix club underway rather than have that happen!
 

T.A

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I just don’t think he will sell. Even to another corrupt man, he’s got a job to do and that doesn’t have a happy ending.
 

Boletus Edulis

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If I were the EFL then I would at the very least hold a place open for them in League Two for the 2020/21 season provided they can make the assurances on that occasion. I mean everyone knows that Dale and noone else is the problem here so even if it reaches the point where it's no longer feasible for Bury to compete in League One this season, nobody really benefits from taking punitive measures against them apart from clubs who get reprieved from relegation as a result. Having them back in League Two doesn't deprive anyone else of a place they earned.

Of course the reason they won't do this is that admitting that Dale is the problem would be to admit that their fit and proper person test was not fit or proper.
Shoddy, I am shocked and frankly expected better from you . Fancy using rationale thinking! It is the EFL we are talking about, heuristics not rationality drives decision making.
 
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valefan16

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Breaking: Further to the crisis at #BuryFC, I understand Norman Smurthwaite has EFL approval to take control at Gigg Lane. Dale unwilling to sell. Smurthwaite has done due diligence. Seems to be the only man with the resources to take it on:
So the EFL have "approved" a man to take over who openly stated he was planning to liquidate another EFL club just five months ago!

He purchased Vale for £1.5 Million, we never saw any investment in the squad despite sales and sell on payments totalling well over £2 million and then sold us for £5 Million (luckily unlike Bury in this situation we had 2 fans who own a business willing to as they describe it "free our loved one from a hostage situation by paying the ransom".

Lets then assume Bury stay in the EFL (seems some views that he is barred from owning an EFL club for 3 years until the Vale purchase payments are cleared as its paid in instalments) they almost certainly get relegated regardless and have to rebuild in L2, from our experience that won't see much investment and likely struggles to stay in the EFL follow.

As I say probably better to go for the phoenix club and work back up with a clean slate!
 

shoddycollins

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Do Bury fans have plans in place for this?

What does Dale gain from the club going to the wall? Does he own the ground? Can he do what he wants with the land? Can't see what his motivations is other than the obvious
I think he does. Further up in this thread it was mentioned that Martin Keown asked him if he owned it on TalkSport and he squirmed uncomfortably in response.

No idea what he can do with it if he's left with no football club and a disused stadium but there's always something. Looking on Google Earth there appears to be a fair bit of modern housing around the stadium so it's likely well placed for that.

Been a belter of a deal for Steve Dale, where else in the world can you buy a chunk of land suitable for housing for a quid? Only drawback is you can't build on it right away as it comes with a football club who are in debt and you have to wait for them to go bust so the debt can be wiped away. He comes across like he's just impatient for them to go bust already and constant badgering for information from the EFL who are still under the impression the club can be saved are an irritation.
 
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Dave-Vale

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Tell Fat Norman to fuck off.

Unbelievable that the EFL would allow him to go anywhere near any other club after what he did to Vale. I guess they’re desperate for anybody to take over so Bury is no longer their problem.
 

BigDaveCUFC

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It is a shame government cannot allow councils by law to take ground off owners if club folds to keep it as sporting venue.

That one thing would kill off many dodgy owners
 

Frealaf

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I think he does. Further up in this thread it was mentioned that Martin Keown asked him if he owned it on TalkSport and he squirmed uncomfortably in response.

No idea what he can do with it if he's left with no football club and a disused stadium but there's always something. Looking on Google Earth there appears to be a fair bit of modern housing around the stadium so it's likely well placed for that.

Been a belter of a deal for Steve Dale, where else in the world can you buy a chunk of land suitable for housing for a quid? Only drawback is you can't build on it right away as it comes with a football club who are in debt and you have to wait for them to go bust so the debt can be wiped away. He comes across like he's just impatient for them to go bust already and constant badgering for information from the EFL who are still under the impression the club can be saved are an irritation.
Saw on a twitter somewhere that Dale has had about 8 or 9 companies and all have been liquidated, must be some money in have companies and letting them go bankrupt otherwise why would he keep doing it?

Also again raises the question of how the EFL allowed someone who has previous for companies being liquidated to takeover a football club. Fit and proper!
 

THE LAST WALTZ

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Just one point here;

If it can be proven that a director has traded negligently or fraudulently then he can be held liable for the corporate debts.

It will never happen of course, but it would be rather sweet if it did.
 

Marked Ox

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Saw on a twitter somewhere that Dale has had about 8 or 9 companies and all have been liquidated, must be some money in have companies and letting them go bankrupt otherwise why would he keep doing it?

Also again raises the question of how the EFL allowed someone who has previous for companies being liquidated to takeover a football club. Fit and proper!
I thought it was a fait accompli before the Football League even knew and Dale didn't go through a fit and proper test?
 

Luke Imp

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Not that we needed any confirmation that this is what he was after, but it's unbelievable that this is allowed to happen in business. Bought everything for a £1, ran up more debts, combined the debts to push through the CVA and will now wait until someone pays him what he wants. Can't be too many areas in normal business you can make that ROI on doing so little and by doing so little.

The Accrington Chairman has his say on these issues, as does MacAnthony. Now the odd manager is starting to have a pop at the EFL as well (Cowley and Barton) and no doubt others will start to follow. It's going to be an interesting few years to see whether the changes needed are implemented.

 

BigDaveCUFC

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The rejection of a get out sale says it all.

Time for laws allowing efl to take clubs off owners,

Mind this is the usual efl trick backfiring for once. Efl has always tried to just ‘keep an empty shell’ going until they get relegated out the league for the conference to sort (which they usually do a far better ran) sadly for efl a decision has to be made now
 

valefan16

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The rejection of a get out sale says it all.

Time for laws allowing efl to take clubs off owners,

Mind this is the usual efl trick backfiring for once. Efl has always tried to just ‘keep an empty shell’ going until they get relegated out the league for the conference to sort (which they usually do a far better ran) sadly for efl a decision has to be made now
The fact they'd let Smurf take over after his time at Vale and threats to liquidate us shows they just want to get out of making the decision!
 

shoddycollins

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Not that we needed any confirmation that this is what he was after, but it's unbelievable that this is allowed to happen in business. Bought everything for a £1, ran up more debts, combined the debts to push through the CVA and will now wait until someone pays him what he wants. Can't be too many areas in normal business you can make that ROI on doing so little and by doing so little.

The Accrington Chairman has his say on these issues, as does MacAnthony. Now the odd manager is starting to have a pop at the EFL as well (Cowley and Barton) and no doubt others will start to follow. It's going to be an interesting few years to see whether the changes needed are implemented.

The gist of that appears to be that Dale himself is one of Bury's creditors. I believe the money he 'invested' in the club was actually a loan from one of his other companies which he has already taken back God knows how much against but that he can now demand any potential buyer for the club pays him back in full for. Now the club is going under because he didn't pay staff and creditors, an action he will have known fine well would result in a winding-up order being filed.

If Bury are kicked out of the football league then liquidation seems inevitable because they have huge debts and will be unable to trade for at least a year. The creditors can only force them into administration through the courts if there is a chance that the company can be saved as a going-concern and an administrator could get the creditors a better deal. If Bury are expelled then that puts paid to any hope for it as a going concern so any administrator would just do what Dale is proposing to do anyway and liquidate the club. Even at that point he shouldn't be allowed to do it himself but he will be because there is no solid proof that he will be dishonest.

As has already been pointed out, what Dale does, buying companies in order to force them into debt and liquidate them, keeping a share of the assets for himself or knowingly paying off creditors that happen to be owned by him isn't legal; but it has to be proven those were his intentions and he keeps getting away with it because it's not too hard to make sure there are no records conclusively proving this. The fact he does it time and time again is not considered proof enough.

So the club gets liquidated. It's a voluntary liquidation so Dale gets to do it how he likes with no real oversight, he just has to follow a certain procedure but gets to keep his own 'records' that prove that procedure was correctly followed. Dale's loan is likely secured on Gigg Lane, the club's only real assett (a lot of clubs have loans secured on their stadia), which would make him one of the top creditors needing paid. I imagine football creditors still come first but he can sell the stadium then (most likely to another company he owns) for an amount that is just about enough to pay off the football creditors, a little bit to himself; probably nothing to any other creditor, staff are supposed to come next but he can just hold his hands up at that point and say, the company has been totally liquidated, all assets have been sold, football and secured creditors have been paid, there's nothing left.

What we're left with is no club, Gigg Lane in the hands of a property developer and Steve Dale, having paid a pound and invested a million, leaving with his million pound investment returned to him and ownership of Gigg Lane.
 

iWomble

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What we're left with is no club, Gigg Lane in the hands of a property developer and Steve Dale, having paid a pound and invested a million, leaving with his million pound investment returned to him and ownership of Gigg Lane.
Can the council not just say that they will never give planning permission for anything built unless it includes a football ground on Gigg Lane and make it worthless? That's what Merton Council did to the Greyhound Stadium site (though they said more general sporting use) and was the only way we managed to afford the land for our new stadium.
 

shoddycollins

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Can the council not just say that they will never give planning permission for anything built unless it includes a football ground on Gigg Lane and make it worthless? That's what Merton Council did to the Greyhound Stadium site (though they said more general sporting use) and was the only way we managed to afford the land for our new stadium.
They could in the short term but will come under increasing pressure if time drags along with the stadium site remaining unused and planning applications for alternative uses being batted away. With your situation it was always a realistic possibility that AFCW would acquire the land, an application would be recieved for a football stadium and one would be built. If Gigg Lane ends up in the hands of property developers they will be more than happy to just sit on the land for decades if needs be until the council caves.

It's called land-banking and it's something developers have done ever since the planning system became a thing. Buy up land you would like to build housing on, profitable prime locations that aren't currently allocated for housing; also buy up land the council would like to see housing built on, usually not as profitable since it's already allocated for housing and therefore more expensive, but don't build any housing.

Now the balance of power is in your favour, nobody else can build housing in the area because you own all the land required to do it. There might be a couple of other developers but they're doing the same thing as you. The council come under pressure from local people who need housing and from central government to meet housing targets. Central government starts to penalise the council financially and eventually a majority of the planning committee caves and lets the developer build where they want, or the developer wins an appeal by arguing the council's holding out for a football stadium is unrealistic.

I can imagine a similar situation would have unfolded at Plough Lane if it were in the hands of a property developer who weren't willing to sell it to you.
 

BigDaveCUFC

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I think it may be easy enough for council to drag it along until dale gets sick of it.

Others like at Scarborough and Kettering took years of it standing empty for things to happen.

I’d say more likely dale will take a profit selling ground in the end than wait to develop.

Mind why he keeps any assets if it goes bust I don’t know
 

BigDaveCUFC

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Always back to loans

Owners should not for me be allowed to loan money to clubs.

If they have the cash pay it
 

Ciderup

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I've just seen a video of a 78 year old Bury fan in absolute bits about the state of his club, a real tear jerker.
I hope a solution can be found and wish the best to every Bury supporter.
We went through something similar in the early 80's, saved with literally minutes to spare so know what their support is feeling today.
My sincere best wishes to Bury F.C but it isn't looking good at all. :(
 

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