The great Poppy debate..

[St. Juste]

Anyone who thinks the poppy isn't a political symbol must have been sitting in a cave with their fingers in their ears and their hands over the eyes for the past 20 years.

It wasn't a political symbol in the past, and certainly wasn't at inception, but in recent years it hasn't been about remembrance at all but rather perpetuating the hero worship of soldiers - to further support of wars and protect them from any atrocities they commit.

I would only ever consider wearing a white poppy now but what most people forget is that for most of its existence the poppy has been rarely worn and any remembrance service has been solemn and low key. That was far more appropriate. What happens now is utterly grotesque.

A member of my family saw active action in WW2, never wore a poppy, never even considered wearing one and would absolutely never discuss his action in the war. Seems a fairly logical response to being exposed to such horror.

The players shouldn't wear one, obviously, but of course they will as any kind of action to the contrary would be poisonous to their careers. Remember our way or face hounding by the press.

Ah, I just love the society we live in.

 

[Super_horns]

I read Wales and Northern Ireland are just going to wear black armbands as a mark of respect for fear of being fined or losing points.

Be interesting to see if UEFA really do punish us and the Scots.

 

[Bluebird_Dai]

I read Wales and Northern Ireland are just going to wear black armbands as a mark of respect for fear of being fined or losing points.

Be interesting to see if UEFA really do punish us and the Scots.

Rags down here are saying that for any action to be taken the opposing team would have to complain to FIFA regarding it. And seen as how both England & Scotland want to wear it they won't report each other. Where as Serbia would most probably report us. Potentially being docked 3 points/missing qualification is something I wouldn't want to risk just to display a poppy.

 

[JimJams]

The u21s are wearing them as we speak. Pioneers them young lads.

 

[JaredSUFC]

As a compromise Wales will be wearing black armbands and having a minutes silence during which fans will raise a poppy mosaic. The FAW and Addidas have also released a replica shirt with a poppy on, the profits of which will go to the RBL.

The Facebook outrage to this story from Walesonline is both depressing and hilarious. The amount of point missing by some people is silly. The most important part of remembrance weekend is to remember, and you don't need a poppy to do that

 

[Super_horns]

The negative reaction is partly why football does try to be seen wearing the poppy - to try and avoid PR backlashes like this.

For every person who agrees with their stance there will be another kicking the boot into the game saying "football doesn't care and footballers are out of touch"

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

What exactly does sticking one on a football shirt do anyway? Ever since the odd team started doing this a few years ago, everyone else has been shamed into it, to the extent the world is now 'outraged' because England and Scotland cant wear one. The fact the Premier League and EFL will have a full 2 weeks of teams wearing it on their shirts isnt enough anymore. Its not like having a poppy on your shirts causes magical donation money to appear in the RBL's tins does it? If they FA and all the rest of them care that much, give a donation on their behalf. Id say that says you care a bit more than putting a picture on a millionaire's top.

Pretty much my thoughts. Have a minute's silence, pay your respects etc but I don't understand the need to have an embroidered poppy on your shirt.

 

[mnb089mnb]

This will be the fourth home game in a row that Wales have had a minute silence or applause. There surely comes a point where these things become meaningless. I think we might already be there. We're at a point where a huge poppy mosaic held aloft by thousands of people isn't enough. It's crazy.

Point that needs to be remembered in all this is that the rules surrounding this were codified by IFAB. 50% of the members on that board are the FAs of the home nations. They could change the rules if they wished.

 

[Leo]

Out of interest....been switching between the three Rugby Union games taking place at the minute. Out of the six teams involved five have a poppy embroidered onto their shirt sleeve....Scotland v Australia, England v South Africa & Italy v New Zealand. Italy are the one team who have abstained. Obviously World Rugby don't have a problem with this (I haven't read/heard any voices of dissent) & also shows that bearing a poppy in these circumstances isn't solely confined to the UK.

 

[silkyman]

Poppies on the shirts or not is ultimately an irrelevance. There's only one thing the players can do to actually make a difference and according to the comms last night they did it.

England players donate their match fees to charity, and all the fees from last night's game went to Veterans charities.

They could have played in a field of poppies, in poppy fancy dress and high on heroin and it wouldn't have been as much use as just donating some money to actually help people.

 

[Leo]

Then again of course you can do both (wear & donate) which the majority do.

 

[SALTIRE]

Oh look no one on the news channels are wearing poppies today; it's almost like they are told when and when not to wear them...

 

[Aber gas]

Oh look no one on the news channels are wearing poppies today; it's almost like they are told when and when not to wear them...

It's a mystery.

 

[Leo]

Oh look no one on the news channels are wearing poppies today; it's almost like they are told when and when not to wear them...

They're only in the drawer awaiting 2017......

 

[Super_horns]

Sounds like both will be punished..

And more bad news for Scotland might be that Strachan is to stay.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37972265

 

[GodsGift]

So the Welsh FA has confirmed one of their charges relates to "some supporters in the stands wearing a poppy".

 

[Leo]

You've got to hand it to FIFA....they've got a real handle on what should be dealt with as outrageous activity & offences. Don't give a fuck about the Qatar corruption award and what has been reported there regards human rights & workers conditions (I believe they paid lip service when pushed) but see these damned filthy wee red flowers.....they cannot be permitted! C*nts to a man!

 

[mnb089mnb]

You've got to hand it to FIFA....they've got a real handle on what should be dealt with as outrageous activity & offences. Don't give a fuck about the Qatar corruption award and what has been reported there regards human rights & workers conditions (I believe they paid lip service when pushed) but see these damned filthy wee red flowers.....they cannot be permitted! C*nts to a man!

Although on the same note it appears people in the UK feel more strongly about FIFA's stance on the poppy rather than deaths from workers in Qatar.

IFAB (which includes the FA, FAW, Irish and Scottish FA) need to take a look at the rules if they don't like them.

 

[Leo]

Although on the same note it appears people in the UK feel more strongly about FIFA's stance on the poppy rather than deaths from workers in Qatar.

IFAB (which includes the FA, FAW, Irish and Scottish FA) need to take a look at the rules if they don't like them.

1) How do you work that out? It has been widely reported and condemned over here.
2) Without wishing to go over tiresome old ground, both the FA & SFA are aware of the rules & are (correctly imo) of the opinion that the poppy is NOT a political symbol. And when did FIFA become clothing accessory police?

 

[mnb089mnb]

1) How do you work that out? It has been widely reported and condemned over here.
2) Without wishing to go over tiresome old ground, both the FA & SFA are aware of the rules & are (correctly imo) of the opinion that the poppy is NOT a political symbol. And when did FIFA become clothing accessory police?

It didn't. The IFAB is, of which half the members are the Home Nations FAs. They helped write the rules! Why has there been no pressure to change the rules?

 

[Leo]

It didn't. The IFAB is, of which half the members are the Home Nations FAs. They helped write the rules! Why has there been no pressure to change the rules?

Do the rules state 'poppies cannot be shown/worn by teams and supporters' ?

 

[St. Juste]

1) How do you work that out? It has been widely reported and condemned over here.
2) Without wishing to go over tiresome old ground, both the FA & SFA are aware of the rules & are (correctly imo) of the opinion that the poppy is NOT a political symbol. And when did FIFA become clothing accessory police?

Yes, but it is a clearly ridiculous opinion to have. What if, say, the Japanese national team wore a symbol remembering their WW2 dead whilst playing in China or the US? Would that be a political symbol? Of course it would, and it would cause an enormous political and diplomatic storm. Shinzo Abe visiting commemorative shrines in Japan caused a diplomatic incident, it is an incredibly political subject.

And if you want any further evidence, why not look at how many teams wore poppies prior to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? I don't recall a single one, not in domestic nor international football. What has changed since then? A media drive to secure support for two ridiculous wars? An appreciation by government that for any action to be effective soldiers need to be lionised rather than critically examined as happened during Vietnam?

At one point the poppy may have been a solemn symbol of remembrance but it has changed beyond all recognition now.as Which is undoubtedly a bit of a shame, a white poppy is the only appropriate symbol of remembrance now.

 

[Leo]

Yes, but it is a clearly ridiculous opinion to have. What if, say, the Japanese national team wore a symbol remembering their WW2 dead whilst playing in China or the US? Would that be a political symbol? Of course it would, and it would cause an enormous political and diplomatic storm. Shinzo Abe visiting commemorative shrines in Japan caused a diplomatic incident, it is an incredibly political subject.

And if you want any further evidence, why not look at how many teams wore poppies prior to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? I don't recall a single one, not in domestic nor international football. What has changed since then? A media drive to secure support for two ridiculous wars? An appreciation by government that for any action to be effective soldiers need to be lionised rather than critically examined as happened during Vietnam?

At one point the poppy may have been a solemn symbol of remembrance but it has changed beyond all recognition now.as Which is undoubtedly a bit of a shame, a white poppy is the only appropriate symbol of remembrance now.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that your opinion, to which you are entirely entitled, was the be all and end all and is the actual opinion which transcends any other. 'Clearly ridiculous' ? I think not. You want to play politician (failed) on here fill your boots but if you think for one minute I'm going to accept and agree with your continued ramblings then Sainty boy, you are on to plums. As for your feeble comment about wearing a white poppy....truly a laughable and idiotic comment as the individual is at liberty to wear which colour they desire and feel is appropriate & feel comfortable with .... so for you to say white 'is the only' shows your narrow mindedness which I find totally egotistical yet absurd at the same time.

I don't need any 'further' evidence from the likes of yourself, you've made your point....I've dismissed it, so a wee lie down might do you the world of good instead of jumping on that (imagined) high horse that you seem to believe you have sole rights to. As far as I am concerned, and I realise it is not universally agreed with, if the Football Associations wanted to display a poppy, which is NOT imo a political symbol irrespective of your havering, then they have the right to do so. If they do not wish to display a poppy that also is fine.

 

[St. Juste]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that your opinion, to which you are entirely entitled, was the be all and end all and is the actual opinion which transcends any other. 'Clearly ridiculous' ? I think not. You want to play politician (failed) on here fill your boots but if you think for one minute I'm going to accept and agree with your continued ramblings then Sainty boy, you are on to plums. As for your feeble comment about wearing a white poppy....truly a laughable and idiotic comment as the individual is at liberty to wear which colour they desire and feel is appropriate & feel comfortable with .... so for you to say white 'is the only' shows your narrow mindedness which I find totally egotistical yet absurd at the same time.

I don't need any 'further' evidence from the likes of yourself, you've made your point....I've dismissed it, so a wee lie down might do you the world of good instead of jumping on that (imagined) high horse that you seem to believe you have sole rights to. As far as I am concerned, and I realise it is not universally agreed with, if the Football Associations wanted to display a poppy, which is NOT imo a political symbol irrespective of your havering, then they have the right to do so. If they do not wish to display a poppy that also is fine.

Well, you've clearly addressed none of my points and, rather bizarrely, called me a failed politican. Which I take great umbrage too.

But lets take a step back from the white poppy for a moment and address the crux of the matter. Do you believe that a Japanese team wearing a poppy, or equivalent, would be considered a political gesture were they playing in the US or China?

If so, what makes the poppy different?

If not, then, well there is no not - the Japanese team in question would be very fortunate to escape China alive. It would be unbelievably inflammatory and a major political incident.

 

[Leo]

Well, you've clearly addressed none of my points and, rather bizarrely, called me a failed politican. Which I take great umbrage too.

But lets take a step back from the white poppy for a moment and address the crux of the matter. Do you believe that a Japanese team wearing a poppy, or equivalent, would be considered a political gesture were they playing in the US or China?

If so, what makes the poppy different?

If not, then, well there is no not - the Japanese team in question would be very fortunate to escape China alive. It would be unbelievably inflammatory and a major political incident.

....and you wonder why I mentioned you as a 'failed' politician. Your points as you call them is simply your opinion on matters which clearly concern you. They are of absolutely NO concern to me. I have my own opinion which I am more than comfortable with. If you or anybody else disagree that's fine by me....you see I care not a jot. I have no intention of addressing your cherry picked points son because they simply are of no interest to me. You my fellow have NO majority on what is/should be considered correct, you simply have an opinion on matters that is no greater than mine nor anyone elses....try and remember that justy boy.......

 

[St. Juste]

....and you wonder why I mentioned you as a 'failed' politician. Your points as you call them is simply your opinion on matters which clearly concern you. They are of absolutely NO concern to me. I have my own opinion which I am more than comfortable with. If you or anybody else disagree that's fine by me....you see I care not a jot. I have no intention of addressing your cherry picked points son because they simply are of no interest to me. You my fellow have NO majority on what is/should be considered correct, you simply have an opinion on matters that is no greater than mine nor anyone elses....try and remember that justy boy.......

Right, so it's an opinion you are holding directly against the evidence?

I'm not surprised my points are of "NO (capitalised for effect!) concern" to you, just like gravity is of no concern to people who think the earth is flat.

Since this is a lost cause, what other kooky stuff do you believe in? Ghosts? Kenny Miller > Lionel Messi?

It's a Friday afternoon, we would all do with a good laugh.

Also, I guess the fact I made a specific point is why it is "cherry picked", but honestly young man, specific evidence is good. It is not your enemy if you are seeking truth.

 

[Leo]

Right, so it's an opinion you are holding directly against the evidence?

I'm not surprised my points are of "NO (capitalised for effect!) concern" to you, just like gravity is of no concern to people who think the earth is flat.

Since this is a lost cause, what other kooky stuff do you believe in? Ghosts? Kenny Miller > Lionel Messi?

It's a Friday afternoon, we would all do with a good laugh.

Also, I guess the fact I made a specific point is why it is "cherry picked", but honestly young man, specific evidence is good. It is not your enemy if you are seeking truth.

The 'evidence' you spout is deemed by yourself to have relevance to this debate. What is it you do NOT (capitalised for effect) understand? It has imo no basis to what has been discussed in this thread apart from within your thinking! Of course gravity is of concern to myself, simply that the specifics of what you haver are NOT (again capitalised for effect) because I have no interest in any comparison of what China/Japan/USA may or may not do with what they believe in.

You're looking for a giggle & wish to know what other kooky 'stuff' I believe in ? Okay....1) St Mirren will easily get promoted at the end of this season (I only brought your team into the discussion because you had to mention a Rangers player as a dig at me which is pretty pathetic) and 2).......You're a grand poster who makes a lot of valid points. There ye go, burst a gut at that son......

 

[mnb089mnb]

I think this is an interesting article on the poppy stuff:
http://jacothenorth.net/blog/poppies/

 

[Leo]

I think this is an interesting article on the poppy stuff:
http://jacothenorth.net/blog/poppies/

Yeah, I agree that it an interesting article. Parts of it I don't agree with but respect the chap's opinion.

 

[St. Juste]

The 'evidence' you spout is deemed by yourself to have relevance to this debate. What is it you do NOT (capitalised for effect) understand? It has imo no basis to what has been discussed in this thread apart from within your thinking! Of course gravity is of concern to myself, simply that the specifics of what you haver are NOT (again capitalised for effect) because I have no interest in any comparison of what China/Japan/USA may or may not do with what they believe in.

Well, myself and FIFA. Thank god they are defining it with regards to relevant comparisons, even if you refuse to.

What I don't understand, but I'm getting close to, is why someone holds opinion contrary to clear evidence.

You have no interest in this comparison, but FIFA is a global organisation and has a clear interest in the comparison - which is why they have correctly deemed the poppy a political system. Your response is "it's not, and I don't care about any other country" which is why you're some raging fan and not a decision maker.

Glad to get that cleared up.