The history thread

[Stringy]

It would be good to have a thread where we could discuss history-related topics as they appear in the news and any other history you might find interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37941608

FIFA has rejected Wales' request to wear the poppy in their next game vs. Serbia. I find public memory quite strange. If you ever visit a small mining village in Derbyshire you are more likely to find a monument to a pit than a war memorial. Also, we've just recently had Black History Month.

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/home.cfm

Above is a link to a fantastic archive for German history if you are a bit of a buff.

Feel free to share anything history related.

 

[Stagat]

Been interested in Graham Hancock's theories about the history of human civilization recently. The short version is we've not linearly evolved as most people think we have. At some point, society was way more advanced than we now acknowledge, but got wiped out and very little evidence was left.

We're a species with amnesia, as they say.

Think his interest started years ago with the water erosion on the Sphinx thing but the argument at the time was... if the Sphinx is way older than we believe then where are all the other ancient monuments? Finding Gobekli Tepe has answered that and is now massively important in how the history books should be re-examined.

This podcast episode is fantastic and explains it all far better than I can (be arsed to).

 

[Stevencc]

History thread, you say?

@Liverpoolfans

 

[Habbinalan]

Is this history or current affairs?

Not sure whether to start this here, in the Politics threads or in the new History thread. Last night, we watched a French film that I'd recorded off Sky Arts a few months back and we ended up talking about it more than any film that we've seen for ages.

Caché (Hidden)

Story of a wealthy Parisian family torn apart when they start receiving videotapes of their house, accompanied by crude, violent drawings. Daniel Auteuil plays Georges Laurent, presenter of a successful literary talk show on TV; Juliette Binoche is his wife, Anne, who works for a publishing house run by an old friend, Pierre. The couple have a 12-year-old son, Pierrot, who competes for his school swimming team. But someone wants to upset this idyll, forcing Georges to unearth a dark secret hidden in his past and buried in his psyche.

I'd describe it as slow paced and not particularly memorable but there were two elements that got us talking.

The first relates to the ending and "whodunnit?" - we've since discovered that it also got everyone talking at the time of release.

The second is just that they mentioned in passing that one of the key characters became an orphan because his Algerian parents had gone to Paris for a demonstration and along with over 200 others been killed by the police in the 1961 Paris massacres!!!

Despite being around in the1960s, neither of us had heard of this and when we did a bit of research we were astounded to discover the level of cover up that was (and has been since) achieved.

I wouldn't mind betting that very few (if any) of you had heard of the 200 - 300 Algerians killed by the French Police and members of "Special Republican Security Companies," in Paris in October 1961, particulary on 16 October when 30,000 Algerians were demonstrating against an 8.30 p.m curfew for muslims in Paris and there were Pinnochet style killings and disappearances managed by a right-wing Paris Police Chief who was convicted of war crimes a couple of years later for his role in sending jews to the camps from Vichy France.

We're now looking for some of the few books that touched on the issues, including a 1963 novel, The Stone Face, by William Gardner Smith.


http://www.wrmea.org/1997-march/a-1...-in-paris-when-the-media-failed-the-test.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

 

[Haillay7]

Been interested in Graham Hancock's theories about the history of human civilization recently. The short version is we've not linearly evolved as most people think we have. At some point, society was way more advanced than we now acknowledge, but got wiped out and very little evidence was left.

We're a species with amnesia, as they say.

Think his interest started years ago with the water erosion on the Sphinx thing but the argument at the time was... if the Sphinx is way older than we believe then where are all the other ancient monuments? Finding Gobekli Tepe has answered that and is now massively important in how the history books should be re-examined.

This podcast episode is fantastic and explains it all far better than I can (be arsed to).

History is written by the victors. Can't really fathom how many civilisations were likely wiped out due nothing more than having a weaker military.

 

[Stringy]

Is this history or current affairs?

It's both. The film itself is a secondary source. You could use it to explore French attitudes to colonial peoples, or current French memory of attitudes, if you follow me. Obviously, I haven't watched it so I could be chatting bollocks, but I recently watched Anastasia (1997) too. You could have used that film for its interpretations of the Russian Revolution (it was caused by Rasputin? Please, it was a popular movement!), or it might have been useful as a way of exploring the attitude of America to Russia in the 1990s.

Another way in which I really like history is that you can use it as a way of exploring another person's worldview without being intrusive. That's not to say that history isn't passionate, of course it is! But history is a way of exploring issues and assessing another person's worldview in a safer context.

Incidentally, I'm happy that someone mentioned French Algeria. The Algerian War of Independence was fascinating. I remember reading about a massacre at the Port of Phillipeville which was brutal. There was a political assassination and an armed mob which tossed grenades into cafes and stabbed European motorcyclists to death. Throats of European women were slit, children were killed and limbs were hacked off. Others were disemboweled. Of course, both sides did terrible things. I might read about it some more at some point.

 

[mowgli]

I read or watch anything to do with The Romans,it's something i've been really into since i was a kid.

 

[Stringy]

I've always found the earlier stuff a little harder to get into. I'm definitely a modern history enthusiast.

There was an oral history account on the Ladbible which I found quite interesting this morning. The guy recalls his experience of being forced to work at Auschwitz and struggling to survive the final march. I want to visit Auschwitz one day.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2972895956090908

 

[smat]

There was an oral history account on the Ladbible

The detoxification of Ladbible will never, ever cease to amaze me.

 

[johnnytodd]

Romania were on Germans side.

sorry Dirk.

 

[Stringy]

I'm currently reading Khrushchev Remembers, the translated version of Khrushchev's memoirs and they are fantastic. He talks about everything, collectivisation, the purges, World War Two, Stalingrad, the Twentieth Party Congress and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Of course, he understates his role in most of the bad but it's still fantastic for seeing the Soviet viewpoint


The best bit though is that there are tonnes of anecdotes from Khrushchev's interactions with Stalin, pretty much in every aspect of Soviet history and Stalin personally. There was a moment when the Politburo was meeting for a New Year's party at Stalin's residence. Molotov, Stalin, Khrushchev et al. were dancing when, Svetlana, Stalin's daughter appeared in the room. Stalin beckoned her to dance with them but she said was tired. She moved to the corner away from the dancing. Stalin went over and insisted that she come back and dance. When she refused, he grabbed her by a fistful of hair. She turned red as blood rushed to her face and had tears in her eyes. The other members of the Politburo, especially Khrushchev felt sorry for her but didn't say anything. These people were real.

I am a massive fan of Soviet history.

 

[Dirk]

Found this thread just now.
Very interesting (especially the first link about (some) History of the Germans (although only from 16th century onwards (haven't found the previous centuries yet). I am very interested in the medieval history of the so-called 1st German Empire "Das Heilige Römische Reich Deutscher Nation" (Holy Roman Empire of German Nation" which spanned nearly 1000 years (according to the point of view) and the 2nd German Empire (Das Kaiserreich). Ironically the so-called 3rd German Reich (Das dritte Reich ) was also called 1000jähriges Reich (1000 year long Empire) lasted only 12 years and wasn't even a Reich (Empire) because we had no Kaiser (Emperor) only a devil in disguise called Führer (Leader)

Romania were on Germans side.sorry Dirk.

Can't follow you here. I know that Romania was an Ally to the Third Reich in WW2 but why are you mentioning it here? This has nothing to do with me so no need to say sorry

I'm currently reading Khrushchev Remembers, the translated version of Khrushchev's memoirs and they are fantastic. He talks about everything, collectivisation, the purges, World War Two, Stalingrad, the Twentieth Party Congress and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Of course, he understates his role in most of the bad but it's still fantastic for seeing the Soviet viewpoint


The best bit though is that there are tonnes of anecdotes from Khrushchev's interactions with Stalin, pretty much in every aspect of Soviet history and Stalin personally. There was a moment when the Politburo was meeting for a New Year's party at Stalin's residence. Molotov, Stalin, Khrushchev et al. were dancing when, Svetlana, Stalin's daughter appeared in the room. Stalin beckoned her to dance with them but she said was tired. She moved to the corner away from the dancing. Stalin went over and insisted that she come back and dance. When she refused, he grabbed her by a fistful of hair. She turned red as blood rushed to her face and had tears in her eyes. The other members of the Politburo, especially Khrushchev felt sorry for her but didn't say anything. These people were real.

I am a massive fan of Soviet history.

Thanks for that. Sounds interesting.
Germany and Russia always had a very difficult relationship (not only because of WW2 and the Aftermath with the Soviet Satellite State called German Democratic Republic )

 

[Techno Natch]

I'm currently reading Khrushchev Remembers, the translated version of Khrushchev's memoirs and they are fantastic. He talks about everything, collectivisation, the purges, World War Two, Stalingrad, the Twentieth Party Congress and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Of course, he understates his role in most of the bad but it's still fantastic for seeing the Soviet viewpoint


The best bit though is that there are tonnes of anecdotes from Khrushchev's interactions with Stalin, pretty much in every aspect of Soviet history and Stalin personally. There was a moment when the Politburo was meeting for a New Year's party at Stalin's residence. Molotov, Stalin, Khrushchev et al. were dancing when, Svetlana, Stalin's daughter appeared in the room. Stalin beckoned her to dance with them but she said was tired. She moved to the corner away from the dancing. Stalin went over and insisted that she come back and dance. When she refused, he grabbed her by a fistful of hair. She turned red as blood rushed to her face and had tears in her eyes. The other members of the Politburo, especially Khrushchev felt sorry for her but didn't say anything. These people were real.

I am a massive fan of Soviet history.

Just looked into his Daughter a bit more and she settled in Bristol for a bit which I didn't know.

 

[Stringy]

Found this thread just now.
Very interesting (especially the first link about (some) History of the Germans (although only from 16th century onwards (haven't found the previous centuries yet). I am very interested in the medieval history of the so-called 1st German Empire "Das Heilige Römische Reich Deutscher Nation" (Holy Roman Empire of German Nation" which spanned nearly 1000 years (according to the point of view) and the 2nd German Empire (Das Kaiserreich). Ironically the so-called 3rd German Reich (Das dritte Reich ) was also called 1000jähriges Reich (1000 year long Empire) lasted only 12 years and wasn't even a Reich (Empire) because we had no Kaiser (Emperor) only a devil in disguise called Führer (Leader)

Can't follow you here. I know that Romania was an Ally to the Third Reich in WW2 but why are you mentioning it here? This has nothing to do with me so no need to say sorry

Thanks for that. Sounds interesting.
Germany and Russia always had a very difficult relationship (not only because of WW2 and the Aftermath with the Soviet Satellite State called German Democratic Republic )

What I like the most about medieval history is how different the people were. I read a great book recently called the Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England, which was written in the style of a visitor's handbook to the 14th century. It covered the landscape, the people, the medieval character, what to wear and so on. I don't possess the prose to capture the spirit of the period in the same way as the author, but here's just a sample of things in medieval England that were different:

Landscape

The fields aren't cut into small, square patches of two to ten acres, like today. The fields are huge and irregularly shaped, often between seven hundred and twelve hundred acres. These are subdivided and many tenants will maintain smaller strips of an acre. The countryside is dominated by allotments.

Evergreen plants are still in Scandinavia, which means the winter skyline has no colour.

If you look up and into a tree and you see a squirrel, it will be red.

People

Half of people at this time won't make it past the age of fifty, even in rich areas. If you live in the Yorkshire village of Wharram Percy, the average life expectancy is 18.

Nearly a half of everyone born in the 14th century dies of plague, meaning the population is very young. If you were to bump into someone in the street, there would be a 35 to 40 per cent chance that they are under the age of 15. Half the entire population is under the age of 21. If you were 16 and in the army, you would have a reasonable chance of leading a battalion.

The average height is 5 ft 7 for a male or 5 ft 2 for a woman. However, a noble is likely to be much taller than you, and to have the advantage in a fight.

Character

In the modern world, you would expect to receive a longer sentence the more serious the crime. In medieval England, it's the more severe the crime, the more heinous the punishment.

Having a sense of humour means that you are good at humiliating your victims. Practical jokes are more common. Watch out for ropes in the street around hocktide (the Monday and Tuesday after Easter), you might step on a noose and become suspended by your ankle until you pay a ransom to raise money for the local parish.

Language

If you can't speak French, you can't command respect. English is the language of the commoners, and isn't even used in the courts until 1350.

Obviously there's a lot more in the book, but for me this is a lot more interesting than reading political history.

Just looked into his Daughter a bit more and she settled in Bristol for a bit which I didn't know.

There's lots of cool stuff like that. Ho Chi Minh worked as a chef in London for a short while. I was also shocked to find out there was a Chartist insurrection on Mansfield Marketplace.

 

[Stringy]

I'm currently reading Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore. I knew that it was highly rated on Amazon, so when I saw it in a book shop for £3 I had to buy it.

I'm currently 60 pages in and it's living up to the hype. It's based on correspondence in letters between Stalin and his inner circle, the memoirs of various characters in his circle and finally the oral testimonies of surviving family members. As such, Montefiore is able to recount the story of Stalin, almost from Stalin's perspective. It reads more like a novel than a history text, which makes it a fantastic read.

Without giving away too many spoilers, the book opens on 9th November 1929 at a party. It describes the scene excellently, so much that the page comes to life. We know exactly what Stalin's wife is wearing, all about her mood and motivations (based on the letters) and you really feel as though you get to know her before she shoots herself later that night, and is found in pool of her own blood the next morning.

What's really striking me so far is how human Stalin is, at least in the early 1930s. It's easy to paint Stalin as a monster, but this is a man who is capable of charming his peers and being a good friend. The members of Politburo really lived as a tight-knit community in the village of the Kremlin, and from reading you'll find out all sorts about family life for these men. There's stuff in there as banal as Stalin popping his read round the door to see if he can borrow some brown sugar at Grigory Ordzhonikidze's. This is just one example of a book that it littered in personal details and anecdotes, which help to bring Stalin and his inner circle to life.

If you are into Stalin or even just history, based on what I have read so far, I would highly recommend buying this book.

 

[smat]

I'm currently reading Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore. I knew that it was highly rated on Amazon, so when I saw it in a book shop for £3 I had to buy it.

I'm currently 60 pages in and it's living up to the hype. It's based on correspondence in letters between Stalin and his inner circle, the memoirs of various characters in his circle and finally the oral testimonies of surviving family members. As such, Montefiore is able to recount the story of Stalin, almost from Stalin's perspective. It reads more like a novel than a history text, which makes it a fantastic read.

Without giving away too many spoilers, the book opens on 9th November 1929 at a party. It describes the scene excellently, so much that the page comes to life. We know exactly what Stalin's wife is wearing, all about her mood and motivations (based on the letters) and you really feel as though you get to know her before she shoots herself later that night, and is found in pool of her own blood the next morning.

What's really striking me so far is how human Stalin is, at least in the early 1930s. It's easy to paint Stalin as a monster, but this is a man who is capable of charming his peers and being a good friend. The members of Politburo really lived as a tight-knit community in the village of the Kremlin, and from reading you'll find out all sorts about family life for these men. There's stuff in there as banal as Stalin popping his read round the door to see if he can borrow some brown sugar at Grigory Ordzhonikidze's. This is just one example of a book that it littered in personal details and anecdotes, which help to bring Stalin and his inner circle to life.

If you are into Stalin or even just history, based on what I have read so far, I would highly recommend buying this book.

Armando Iannucci is making a film called the Death of Stalin, about the scramble for power after Stalin's death. Think it's out this year. Should be good!

 

[Stringy]

I'll watch that but I hope they have consulted the historians. At least if the film's not that good, you'll end up with something like Suffragette. If they don't you could end up with an abomination like The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, which was an insult to the memory of the people involved.

 

[Benito]

Your favorite SS Division

Il go first 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

Joachim Peiper what a guy. The best dressed military force of all time.

 

[Abertawe]

35,000 years old, thing of beauty.

 

[slaphead]

Your favorite SS Division

Il go first 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

Joachim Peiper what a guy. The best dressed military force of all time.

All the SS uniforms and all Hitlers uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss.

 

[Stringy]

All the SS uniforms and all Hitlers uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss.

I do feel kind of sorry for Hugo Boss on that one. There were loads of companies that accepted government contracts.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

Sympathy for Hugo Boss is always at the forefront of my mind when I'm pondering the Wehrmacht.

 

[Stringy]

I agree but I'm coming more from the angle that many companies accepted the contracts and turned enormous profits. Thyssen, Krupps, IG Farben etc. were examples.

If these companies didn't accept the contracts then they would just go elsewhere or the state would fill the void. The Hermann Goering Steelworks, for example, sprung up as the result of an industrial dispute.

I suppose it's worth knowing if you're planning on buying something from Boss. I will say though that I like Hugo Boss watches.

 

[SALTIRE]

The greatest ad ever made by Boss this

 

[Stevencc]

You only like it because he is Scottish.

 

[SALTIRE]

I suppose it's worth knowing if you're planning on buying something from Boss. I will say though that I like Hugo Boss watches.

It doesn't bother me really as I have Boss cologne there and drive a BMW whom I know made aircraft for the German military in the wars. Got to know when to move on. I don't buy Yank stuff these days though, and try not to buy anything Chinese either, though thats increasingly hard to do.

 

[sl1k]

I like their perfumes and suits.

Everything else is bang average imo. Nazi connections are a bit bad too.

 

[SALTIRE]

You only like it because he is Scottish.

Its the cheesiness of the setup and how he hams it up that makes it. I always laugh whenever I see it

 

[Stevencc]

Its the cheesiness of the setup and how he hams it up that makes it. I always laugh whenever I see it

He does look pretty suave though, you have to admit.

 

[SALTIRE]

He does look pretty suave though, you have to admit.

Aye he is a good looking guy and has a cheeky glint in his face. You can see how he gets the women the swine!