there's an election

[TheMinsterman]

Both left for personal reasons, the account removals were to remove temptations to come back, Alty especially had a very valid reason that he can't really help.

 

[PuB]

Fair enough, I wish the best for them both. Will be missed

 

[Abertawe]

 

[Mr. Scruff]

Very sad that you WANT brexit to be a failure just so you can say I told you so.

Sorry for the late reply.

I can't see anywhere in my post that says that. I'm just stating the fact that short term at least Brexit will damage the economy. The second we leave tariffs are going to go on all exports not just to E.U countries but every country the E.U had a trade deal with on our behalf. The fallacy propagated by the brexiters that we can even come close to negotiating something to mitigate that in two years is farcial and is already being proved so. Whether the damage is merely pronounced or catastrophic is all that remains to be seen.

But what's more I take issue with this bollloks I keep hearing about what's done is done and all joining together to get the best Brexit possible. I will never ever support Britain leaving the European Union. I am a son of a European national, I consider my self European way before I consider my self British. I believe that nationalism is a stain on humanity and one of the things holding us back. I want a world with less immigration controls and although the EU is far from perfect I think Britain and the world is a better place with it in it.

Quite frankly I want Brexit to be an utter disaster, I want it to be so bad so quickly so that those who have been hoodwinked by a cartel of hate and self interest realise what a huge mistake we have made. I want us to return to the E.U as soon as possible and this time as a full partner. This isn't about saying 'i told you so' this is that I am fundemantaly opposed to it and even if by some miracle Britain prospers as a result I will never support or condone it.

 

[Abertawe]

Sorry for the late reply.

I can't see anywhere in my post that says that. I'm just stating the fact that short term at least Brexit will damage the economy. The second we leave tariffs are going to go on all exports not just to E.U countries but every country the E.U had a trade deal with on our behalf. The fallacy propagated by the brexiters that we can even come close to negotiating something to mitigate that in two years is farcial and is already being proved so. Whether the damage is merely pronounced or catastrophic is all that remains to be seen.

But what's more I take issue with this bollloks I keep hearing about what's done is done and all joining together to get the best Brexit possible. I will never ever support Britain leaving the European Union. I am a son of a European national, I consider my self European way before I consider my self British. I believe that nationalism is a stain on humanity and one of the things holding us back. I want a world with less immigration controls and although the EU is far from perfect I think Britain and the world is a better place with it in it.

Quite frankly I want Brexit to be an utter disaster, I want it to be so bad so quickly so that those who have been hoodwinked by a cartel of hate and self interest realise what a huge mistake we have made. I want us to return to the E.U as soon as possible and this time as a full partner. This isn't about saying 'i told you so' this is that I am fundemantaly opposed to it and even if by some miracle Britain prospers as a result I will never support or condone it.

What is it about being administered by an unelected commission & councils you find so appealing?

I'd have thought the minimum you want as a citizen is some degree of sway over decision makers of the political system you find yourself in. That isn't afforded by the EU. If you want close ties with the EU you can at least vote for it.

You talk about being a European but I gotta tell ya mate that's a complete fallacy. The commission & council aren't running this whole charade to make everyone & everything all lovely. There's an oath the commissioners have to take which enforces them to act in the interests of the commission even if it disadvantages a EU member state(s). Greece has exposed the ugly reality of how the EU is engineered to serve currency. More youngsters aren't in work than are and those with the slightest qualifications have gone to serve the beast in another state whilst pensioner's have to cope with huge reductions in their pension. The Greeks haven't voted for that but nonetheless that is what they've endured for years.

You've bought into some almighty fiction if you believe the EU is a safe haven where evil dare not venture.

 

[Laker]

What is it about being administered by an unelected commission & councils you find so appealing?

I'd have thought the minimum you want as a citizen is some degree of sway over decision makers of the political system you find yourself in. That isn't afforded by the EU. If you want close ties with the EU you can at least vote for it.

You talk about being a European but I gotta tell ya mate that's a complete fallacy. The commission & council aren't running this whole charade to make everyone & everything all lovely. There's an oath the commissioners have to take which enforces them to act in the interests of the commission even if it disadvantages a EU member state(s). Greece has exposed the ugly reality of how the EU is engineered to serve currency. More youngsters aren't in work than are and those with the slightest qualifications have gone to serve the beast in another state whilst pensioner's have to cope with huge reductions in their pension. The Greeks haven't voted for that but nonetheless that is what they've endured for years.

You've bought into some almighty fiction if you believe the EU is a safe haven where evil dare not venture.

My view on the EU was split and remains so - I never loved the EU however there were clearly some benefits. And I imagine prior to the referendum that most people would have had similar views and it came down to how much you valued what we got versus the bits you disliked (I came down about 60/40 against and therefore voted that way).

However all we've seen since the referendum is this fake love towards the EU and a total lack of recognition that the majority had plenty negative to say about it beforehand.

 

[Stevencc]

My view on the EU was split and remains so - I never loved the EU however there were clearly some benefits. And I imagine prior to the referendum that most people would have had similar views and it came down to how much you valued what we got versus the bits you disliked (I came down about 60/40 against and therefore voted that way).

However all we've seen since the referendum is this fake love towards the EU and a total lack of recognition that the majority had plenty negative to say about it beforehand.

Can't have it both ways mate, sorry.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

As a pretty strong remainer and continued citizen of the EU after the UK fucks off, T makes a very valid point. The EU is also the poster boy for neo-liberalism which as a whinging lefty conflicts me a little bit.

I'd have thought the minimum you want as a citizen is some degree of sway over decision makers of the political system you find yourself in. That isn't afforded by the EU. If you want close ties with the EU you can at least vote for it.

All dandy in theory, in reality really we have jack shit influence over the political system, which is probably a good thing as the general public are easily influenced fools.

(Yes I'm cranky, Princess didn't get his 8 hours last night).

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

My view on the EU was split and remains so - I never loved the EU however there were clearly some benefits. And I imagine prior to the referendum that most people would have had similar views and it came down to how much you valued what we got versus the bits you disliked (I came down about 60/40 against and therefore voted that way).

However all we've seen since the referendum is this fake love towards the EU and a total lack of recognition that the majority had plenty negative to say about it beforehand.

That's true for pretty much anything you lose that you consider to be broadly positive. Imagine if we used funerals to air our grievances about someone.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

What is it about being administered by an unelected commission & councils you find so appealing?

I'd have thought the minimum you want as a citizen is some degree of sway over decision makers of the political system you find yourself in. That isn't afforded by the EU. If you want close ties with the EU you can at least vote for it.

You talk about being a European but I gotta tell ya mate that's a complete fallacy. The commission & council aren't running this whole charade to make everyone & everything all lovely. There's an oath the commissioners have to take which enforces them to act in the interests of the commission even if it disadvantages a EU member state(s). Greece has exposed the ugly reality of how the EU is engineered to serve currency. More youngsters aren't in work than are and those with the slightest qualifications have gone to serve the beast in another state whilst pensioner's have to cope with huge reductions in their pension. The Greeks haven't voted for that but nonetheless that is what they've endured for years.

You've bought into some almighty fiction if you believe the EU is a safe haven where evil dare not venture.

The European commission is made up of representatives appointed by the democratically elected governments of the members of the state. It's exactly the same principle as our executive branch of government being appointed by the legestlive branch.

If you have problems with the Democratic deficit there you should also be up in arms about our own Democratic system which allows 35 % of the electorate and therefore less than 20% of the population to dictate policies to the rest. A system that guarantees two parties to dominate no matter what the vote share of the others. A system that is justified as being able to support local interests but in reality allows MPs to be coerced into toeing the line of a few key players.

But to be honest the real reason I have little care for accusations the the E.U is undemocratic is that I have come to believe that democracy as we see in the West right now is not conducive to good governance. Of the three fundamental rights our democracies give us, the first being the rule of law and freedom of the courts , the second freedom of speech , the third universal suffrage comes a way distant third in my opinion.

Personally I think we as a society are fooling ourselves into thinking that holding what amounts to a popularity contest in which any number of lies and mistruths are told every 4 or 5 years is the best way to decide policy. Politics always comes before good policy on both sides of the aisle. I actually think there should be more appointed roles in governance and the American system whereby everything is voted on scares the shit out of me.

Now that's not to say I'd completely do away with voting. I certainly believe that there should be a mechanism to remove those in power who are corrupt or bad at their job and that everybody in society has a right to have a say in that.
But just having a vote once every 5 years to decide the policies on everything from econimics, environment , social policy etc over majority of which most people have little to no clue over is a farce in my opinion.

I have rambled on but to sum up I have more faith in qualified beaurocrats than elected officials

As for the rest I'm aware the EU is far from perfect, but I think everybody in society stands a better chance against monied interests together and we are better inside than out.