The Labour Thread

Hooped Wizard said:

The left have always been the most violent group in British politics.

Hope they are dealt with.

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Dealt with how?

Cut off their left arm, would seem appropriate.

At the end of each financial year I like to cut off my worst performing limb. I find it encourages my remaining members to compete better.

Hooped Wizard said:

The left have always been the most violent group in British politics.

Hope they are dealt with.

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http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...lly-pictures-police-10193617#ICID=FB-MEN-main

He's a fucking awful troll, bless him

Pliny Harris said:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...lly-pictures-police-10193617#ICID=FB-MEN-main

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Excellent news.

Nut jobs don't have a place in our society.

Aber gas said:

He's a fucking awful troll, bless him

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So you don't think the left are violent?

I'm guessing your account maybe a little biased so.....

Hooped Wizard said:

The left have always been the most violent group in British politics.

Hope they are dealt with.

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Got attacked by fascists earlier this year. Suffice to say they did more than chuck an egg at someone who clearly deserved to have an egg chucked at him.

Is throwing an egg 'violence'? It can't cause any harm. Better for them to use green custard or something though because it looks funnier.

SUTSS said:

You can be left wing and not support Corbyn.

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True, but it's pretty apparent that the Graun, Indy and Mirror are as much the servants of capital as the Mail and the Sun. The commentariat lot have far more in common (and far more to do) with Cameron and co than they do with the people whose lives are ruined by his policies - or indeed by the implementation of those policies by local government.

When they do advocate for anything good, it's far more out of patrician benevolence than actual meaningful solidarity. No more was that apparent than when the Guardian came out against the Amnesty decision to support sex-work decriminalisation.

(or, you know, the fact that they kick off when a Tory gets egged but are pretty silence when the full violence of the state is deployed against undocumented migrants and people who can't afford their rent)

smat said:

Is throwing an egg 'violence'? It can't cause any harm.

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it was an ostrich egg

I've met a few people (all wishy-washy London liberals, I must confess) who came out of events at which Jeremy Corbyn was speaking with the view that he was a decent sort with some interesting ideas, but that many of his followers are genuinely quite extreme and scary.

I dunno. I'm all for the resurgence of the left, but I do find the shrieky, spitty element incredibly tiresome. Surely we should be aiming for Scandinavia, not the Soviet Union?

Alty said:

I dunno. I'm all for the resurgence of the left, but I do find the shrieky, spitty element incredibly tiresome. Surely we should be aiming for Scandinavia, not the Soviet Union?

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Newton's third law innit. People are like that because they're really angry about what's happening, and they want to be heard. Besides, it's protest. Should everyone be standing around in silence or sutin?

It's also easy to be nice to each other in Scandinavia because the societies are far more equal than here. What do they have to resent each other over? Zlatan vs Bendtner? (A powder keg of a conversation, admittedly).

smat said:

Newton's third law innit. People are like that because they're really angry about what's happening, and they want to be heard. Besides, it's protest. Should everyone be standing around in silence or sutin?

It's also easy to be nice to each other in Scandinavia because the societies are far more equal than here. What do they have to resent each other over? Zlatan vs Bendtner? (A powder keg of a conversation, admittedly).

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There's a wide range of approaches you can take between sitting on your arse and physically attacking your enemies, though. I agree that people have the right to be angry about policies that negatively affect their quality of life and that it's better to have passionate people involved in politics than a bland mass of boring technocrats. But you can be an effective and strong-willed campaigner/politician without trying to intimidate your opponents.

Re Scandinavia (not the question of whether Ibra or Bendtner is better, which let's face it, will never be solved)...part of the reason society is much more equal is there's a consensual air to politics over there. If you're trying to get people to buy into your vision for the nation, then putting your ideas to people in a polite way is probably a good tactic.

The way the "shrieky, spitty element" is overemphasised amongst the protesting demographic is shocking and makes the vilification of football fans in the '80s seem like a vicarage tea party, especially when all the former are doing is campaigning for a fairer, happier world and for the most part having a gay old time while they're at it. Yesterday I saw thousands of people, if not tens of. I saw no abuse let alone any directed, and I only even saw two Guy Fawkes masks thank god, albeit still two too many. And overall, one egg-thrower out of 60k+ people, and a few that spat. On the other side hey, 44,000 reported hate crimes this past year. Let's speak up for them before we speak up for millionaires behind a steel barricade.

While I'm at it I've also met many followers of the Conservatives and the Ukips that are genuinely quite extreme and scary, and sometimes more than merely "quite". Of course I don't mean mere amicable disagreement which I can(/try to) get along with, but in-your-face contempt for women, LGBT, people of colour, and the destitute. I also have many of arenas in my life where any sincere input I make will be quickly shut down. Maybe that forces people to retreat into echo chambers, maybe some end up pretty socially stunted when it comes to exchanging ideas.

Just to be clear, I don't think the nutter element is predominant and I accept all political parties have their share of undesirables. I was only relaying what I'd heard from people who've actually been to see Corbyn. And surely we can all agree that the psychos are unbearable and ruin it for everyone? Like the idiots who tried to storm Tory HQ and the plank who lobbed a fire extinguisher off a roof during the (largely peaceful) tuition fee protests a few years back. Totally counter-productive. Can't stand the bastards.

Holding up a photo of Thatcher at an anti-Tory demonstration was always going to be a bad idea.

I'm glad that this demo has had some decent media coverage. Usually most media outlets cover these things up to try and keep the majority of the public in the dark about the fact that 'austerity' is morally bankrupt and economically destructive.

Any idea why Gideon is out today saying that the Tories are the party for the majority of normal British people and bringing up a load of historic nonsense about how it was them that ended slavery and fought for equal rights for the disabled? Are the Tories a little bit worried because of how Corbyn has struck a massive chord with people?

Also noticed that they seem to be back tracking on things too. Finally admitting that a large portion of people will be worse off when the new tax credits system comes in and Cameron was saying that they have no plans to cut free school meals for kids last week.

Dave-Vale said:

Any idea why Gideon is out today saying that the Tories are the party for the majority of normal British people and bringing up a load of historic nonsense about how it was them that ended slavery and fought for equal rights for the disabled? Are the Tories a little bit worried because of how Corbyn has struck a massive chord with people?

Also noticed that they seem to be back tracking on things too. Finally admitting that a large portion of people will be worse off when the new tax credits system comes in and Cameron was saying that they have no plans to cut free school meals for kids last week.

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With Labour veering to the left, they want to want to make the centre ground their's for good. Appealing for disaffected Labour votes is an attempt at kicking them into touch.

Cheese & Biscuits said:

So, what is everyone's opinion on Corbyn's first few weeks? I'm particularly interested in non-Labour supporters (not his policies/views as I don't expect everyone to agree, more him and how he has gone about things).

I'm spectacularly biased but I'm very impressed. I can't see how anyone can not like the man to be honest. He's allowing his Labour MPs to publicly disagree with him, he's trying to stop the pantomime of PMQs, he's trying to be substance over style etc and he's not reacted to the gutter press from what I've seen.

As I say, I voted for Corbyn so I may be viewing this through rose tinted specs so I'd be interested in hearing other people's views. I still don't think he'll be PM but I do think politics, and the Labour Party, will be in a much stronger position because of him.

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Not a Labour voter or supporter. I think I'm actually a little more sympathetic towards New Labour than most on here but by the time I was eligible to vote in a GE (which would have been 05) I thought the whole project had soured to the extent where I no longer considered the party a viable option, so Corbyn certainly feels like a breath of fresh air. I think he's got off to a pretty decent start. I like him, I like his domestic policies, I think he's talked a good game about wanting to conduct politics in a more open, democratic and civil way. But - and I hate to say this because it instinctively seems to be completely contrary to what endears him to people - there are occasions where I think he could just be a little bit more media savvy. By this I don't mean that he needs to actively court the media - I don't think he owes them anything and personally quite enjoy his open DISDAIN. I just think he probably needs to keep in mind that the press remains fairly influential when it comes to framing the political narrative and shaping people's perceptions. The (admittedly extremely trivial) incident with the national anthem and the furore over Trident are, I think, examples of where he attracted needless negative headlines. It would have been quite easy to have sidestepped the controversy on both these occasions and a more evasive answer on Trident would probably have been the more politically astute thing to do given internal party tensions. This is what's going to be such a critical test - to what extent can you remain committed to your principles when they're not obviously shared by the parliamentary party? At the same time how far can you move away from those principles when you've been given a huge mandate from party members? It's a really difficult balancing act. Still very much agree with your last sentence though.

10,000 people show up to listen to Corbyn speak in Manchester. Middle finger up to the Tories. Apparently, Corbyn has broken regulations stating that opposing parties should stay away from each other's conferences.

Alty said:

Just to be clear, I don't think the nutter element is predominant and I accept all political parties have their share of undesirables. I was only relaying what I'd heard from people who've actually been to see Corbyn. And surely we can all agree that the psychos are unbearable and ruin it for everyone? Like the idiots who tried to storm Tory HQ and the plank who lobbed a fire extinguisher off a roof during the (largely peaceful) tuition fee protests a few years back. Totally counter-productive. Can't stand the bastards.

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Aye, I think I end up getting more annoyed by the overemphasis on it than the deeds done. When he stopped by our neck of the woods during the leadership campaign too: I went with two good friends, one who was always sold on Kendall, never elaborating more than Corbyn being championed solely by young supporters and hipsters who were "diarrhoea" to him. He looked daft when a very even slice of the Bradford public turned up. A lovely atmosphere too, I'm not sure but there might have been a few handing out the SWP newsletter by the entrance but then again I wouldn't be surprised if SWP activists were watching me pee.

I remember five years ago going to the square opposite the railway station in Leeds for a demo on tuition fees, austerity et al. This one strange lad of 19 tagged along with me, wasn't interested in current affairs but wanted to see shit get fucked up, apparently. When he realised it was just a few local reps making small speeches to calm and appreciative applause he staggered off looking a bit puzzled. Yeah I'm absolutely sure plenty the (extremely small) violent element will rationalise it as righteous direct action, but I also get the feeling the more raucous dos attract scratters who only want to get one thing out of it.

Left-wingers I know overall seem a lot more empowered than five months ago. I reckon it will be a positive thing as all these great ideas are starting to get listened to, and folk will be less likely to scream in frustration.

smat said:

It's also easy to be nice to each other in Scandinavia because the societies are far more equal than here. What do they have to resent each other over? Zlatan vs Bendtner? (A powder keg of a conversation, admittedly).

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The far right and far left are actually, broadly speaking, far nastier in Scandinivian countries than in Britain. Forget spitting, think stabbing and house raids. There seems to me to be a loose correlation in Western/Northern Europe between how much a state tries to stifle free speech and how nutty the fringe movements get.

Well, no papers support the Greens or other left wing

Alty said:

I've met a few people (all wishy-washy London liberals, I must confess) who came out of events at which Jeremy Corbyn was speaking with the view that he was a decent sort with some interesting ideas, but that many of his followers are genuinely quite extreme and scary.

I dunno. I'm all for the resurgence of the left, but I do find the shrieky, spitty element incredibly tiresome. Surely we should be aiming for Scandinavia, not the Soviet Union?

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I'm more scared of Jeremy Hunt who says that working class people on low incomes have no self respect and should work harder.
One of the biggest things I like about Corbyn is how he doesn't wear a tie in many formal situations. He doesn't even fasten the top button of his shirt... class!

The Paranoid Pineapple said:

Not a Labour voter or supporter. I think I'm actually a little more sympathetic towards New Labour than most on here but by the time I was eligible to vote in a GE (which would have been 05) I thought the whole project had soured to the extent where I no longer considered the party a viable option, so Corbyn certainly feels like a breath of fresh air. I think he's got off to a pretty decent start. I like him, I like his domestic policies, I think he's talked a good game about wanting to conduct politics in a more open, democratic and civil way. But - and I hate to say this because it instinctively seems to be completely contrary to what endears him to people - there are occasions where I think he could just be a little bit more media savvy. By this I don't mean that he needs to actively court the media - I don't think he owes them anything and personally quite enjoy his open DISDAIN. I just think he probably needs to keep in mind that the press remains fairly influential when it comes to framing the political narrative and shaping people's perceptions. The (admittedly extremely trivial) incident with the national anthem and the furore over Trident are, I think, examples of where he attracted needless negative headlines. It would have been quite easy to have sidestepped the controversy on both these occasions and a more evasive answer on Trident would probably have been the more politically astute thing to do given internal party tensions. This is what's going to be such a critical test - to what extent can you remain committed to your principles when they're not obviously shared by the parliamentary party? At the same time how far can you move away from those principles when you've been given a huge mandate from party members? It's a really difficult balancing act.

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I don't see how he can balance everything. Some issues I think will just be killers for the party, like Trident.

Say they put it on the debating schedule for the party conference in 12 months time. All indicators said had it been debated at the last conference and put to a vote, the party would have voted in favour of keeping it. What a huge black eye for Corbyn that would have been, especially when you have cheerleaders like McCluskey wanting to see it kept. Ok, what happens if it had been voted to be scrapped and adopted as policy. Well, again there were indicators that Corbyn would have faced a raft of shadow cabinet resignations. Tom Watson wants it kept, as do a number of senior MPs. So for me, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. And thats just 1 issue.

I'll be honest, I don't see him ever speaking to middle class England and helping Labour claw back some of the seats they lost. I don't see him making inroads into Tory safe seats. Yeah, sure, great, he gets 10k to turn up in Manchester and has loads of people joining the Labour party. But what happens if the majority of those new supporters are registered voters in the safe Labour seats anyway, which I reckon might well be the case. Well, all that new support will mean naff all come the next generals.

And what about Scotland? With the Tories forcing Scottish voters into the arms of Sturgeon, I don't think Labour and Corbyn have a cat in hells chance of clawing back any of the 40 seats they lost in May. Without those seats, how can Labour, with or without Corbyn, ever expect to get power back? I doubt the Tories are at all worried about him

That's just my opinion anyway. Don't be too harsh on me, I'm no expert on the subject. Out of interest, seeing how there is a large red population on this board, can someone convince me that Corbyn can unite the party and start them on the road to recovery over the next few years? Can someone make an argument that he can make Labour electable at the next generals? Because I simply don't see it.

Dave-Vale said:

H
Any idea why Gideon is out today saying that the Tories are the party for the majority of normal British people and bringing up a load of historic nonsense about how it was them that ended slavery and fought for equal rights for the disabled? Are the Tories a little bit worried because of how Corbyn has struck a massive chord with people?

Also noticed that they seem to be back tracking on things too. Finally admitting that a large portion of people will be worse off when the new tax credits system comes in and Cameron was saying that they have no plans to cut free school meals for kids last week.

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The Tories know that IF Labour do shift more and more to the left on most issues (we'll have to wait and see but chances they they will) then there is more centre ground open to claiming, especially if the Lib Dems struggle to make themselves heard under Farron (come on Tim pipe up). Osbourne fancies positioning himself across the centre, claiming some righter leaning Labour type votes - to the point of yesterday coming out with several strikingly similar Ed Balls ideas. If Osbourne can keep that fairly old school Tory appeal he has within his party, and add on this centre ground reach, there's every chance he'll be Prime Minster for 6 years come 2019.

Don't lynch me for saying it, I'm just pointing out the obvious plan.

JJ1532 said:

I'll be honest, I don't see him ever speaking to middle class England and helping Labour claw back some of the seats they lost. I don't see him making inroads into Tory safe seats. Yeah, sure, great, he gets 10k to turn up in Manchester and has loads of people joining the Labour party. But what happens if the majority of those new supporters are registered voters in the safe Labour seats anyway, which I reckon might well be the case. Well, all that new support will mean naff all come the next generals.

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There was a piece about this on More Or Less the other week and they reached the same conclusion as you. All the seats with the lowest turnout in the last election were Labour safe seats, so getting more voters in those places isn't going to make any difference. They need to win voters from the Conservatives in order to win the election.

biggest problem in my view for Labour at present is they have no one who stands out...........cannot think of any of their MP's really off top of my head.

Tory wise I like Osborne for all the hate he gets, used to like Hague and Clarke when in the mix, Boris of course also.

then you have the other side of the coin, Duncan-Smith who is like some Bond Villain, Hunt of course comes off as smarmy and easily hated

then people like may in middle, sometimes hate, sometimes not.

but either liked or hated they stand out.

you cannot say that for much of Labour at moment.

Alty said:

Boris of course also

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Of course.

I think you'd have a different view of Boris if you'd lived in London...
And Osbourne likeable?
He is a brilliant political maneouvrer, in fact everything he does is a completely political act and I can't think of any frontline British politician who has made it into such an art form but the guy is not likeable in any shape or form. I'm not even sure he's even that much loved within his own party.

The front page of The Sun today is the kind of shamelessly immoral propaganda that makes you hope everyone that works there is a manic depressive.