European Union Referendum

Ian_Wrexham · Oct 27, 2016

markwwfc1992 said:
The migrants in question are in boats in the Mediterranean, ie, not our borders. If were talking about migrants getting in rickety little boats to cross the English Channel that is different, and something we have more control over as it's our border.

To come out with statements like 'people who don't share my views on our country's immigration policy are happy to watch thousands of people drown is frankly insulting to millions of people in this country who don't share your views regarding immigration/border control.

Of course there needs to be change regarding border control throughout Europe. Migrants shouldn't have to put themselves and their families lives in danger to get to a safe country inside of Europe. I also don't think a complete open border policy is the answer either, it needs to be sustainable.

Fair enough there's a spectrum of positions. That said, plenty of people, including a few on this thread, do not support liberalising borders into Europe. They are basically happy to watch people drown. I've amended my original post to clarify.

I think people who support borders (including UK Borders) are in denial about the level of violence perpetrated in enforcing them. Note that this doesn't always include violence to people who are undocumented (e.g. this horrible case).

johnnytodd · Oct 27, 2016

Carver said:
That's the problem right there, these people never forgive and that is why they are and always will be screwed up.

We have learned to forgive the German people after the horrific things they did to us and others in WW2 as they knew what they did was monstrous and pure evil.

Now we get along with them.

I like Dirk thats it.

AFCB_Mark · Oct 27, 2016

On a brighter note, we've got some economic results out today showing stronger than forecast growth of 0.5% since July. Plus Nissan putting in two new production lines for new cars up in Sunderland. Which is probably the best news Sunderland has got since they stayed up (and relegated Newcastle) last May!

johnnytodd · Oct 27, 2016

AFCB_Mark said:
On a brighter note, we've got some economic results out today showing stronger than forecast growth of 5% since July. Plus Nissan putting in two new production lines for new cars up in Sunderland. Which is probably the best news Sunderland has got since they stayed up last May!

which squares buy Nissan's??????

.V. · Oct 27, 2016

AFCB_Mark said:
On a brighter note, we've got some economic results out today showing stronger than forecast growth of 5% since July. Plus Nissan putting in two new production lines for new cars up in Sunderland. Which is probably the best news Sunderland has got since they stayed up (and relegated Newcastle) last May!

It's 0.5% growth down from 0.7% no?

AFCB_Mark · Oct 27, 2016

.V. said:
It's 0.5% growth down from 0.7% no?

Pleas excuse my typo. We aren't China :lol:

As I understand it, 0.7 was the last quarter, so 0.5 is down, but as the first totally post brexit quarter its better than the forecast 0.3.

France would be delighted by that.

Dirk · Oct 27, 2016

johnnytodd said:
I like Dirk thats it.

Sorry for intruding your very own EU Referendum thread with a posting of no value to the theme but I had to laugh out loud about the post. Thanks Johnny

Back to Topic (without me)

Abertawe · Oct 27, 2016

Yeah man pure growth for the rich. It's totally cool only Greece is worse than us in terms of wage growth.

Bilo · Oct 27, 2016

Carver said:
Just have a look at what is happening in countries like France, Sweden and Germany.

I'm sorry, I try to avoid being condescending when it comes to politics but I'll gladly make an exception regarding this. This is the largest study of life quality ever presented, country by country:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)31467-2/fulltext

We're third, mate, you're fifth. And it takes statistics from 2010-2015, and all those years (including previous years from 2003-ish) we had a larger quantity of immigration than any other year bar 2015, but 2015 has essentially been evened out by 2016 as we too closed our borders to the strictest possible extent.

So tell me again, what's happening here?

I figure you're gonna mention rape now, probably without even touching that what constitutes as rape in Sweden, along with how the cases are counted, isn't in any way comparable with any other country in the world. There's lots of research on this subject too, if you're interested, but I figure you're not. Anyway, almost all crimes in Sweden except white collar are going down. There's research on that as well, unfortunately for you.

Ebeneezer Goode · Oct 27, 2016

Ian_Wrexham said:
Our system of borders is incredibly violent. People get into rickety boats in the Mediterranean not because they want to but because Europe has systematically closed off all safe routes in. That people drown in the Mediterranean in the numbers that they do is an unavoidable consequence of Europe's border policy and as such anyone who supports that policy is either deluding themselves or views the thousands of deaths as a small price to pay.

It's only unavoidable from our perspective because we can't and shouldn't be held responsible for the decisions that free-thinking refugees choose to make.

The Paranoid Pineapple said:
Quite. Seems utterly bizarre to me that we're even discussing whether this refugees furore might be considered racist (as if it fucking matters). Are we really so devoid of compassion that we're going to cynically pore over pictures of individuals in a doomed attempt to ascertain whether they might be nudging twenty? That's an awful, dehumanising way to respond to a crisis.

There are upwards 60 million refugees in the world and these ones are no more deserving of help. If we're going to do anything - which I don't concede is our responsibility - then why not look at the causes instead of making emotional decisions based on the symptoms. If you hate to see images of drowned children in the news then maybe refraining from encouraging dangerous sea crossings with cries of 'refugees welcome' would be a good place to start.

The plan to fund refugee centres in neighbouring countries to Syria was absolutely the right approach from the get-go. A refugee who's already escaped to the safety of a developed Western country but wants to move to another one should be the least of our concerns.

Ebeneezer Goode · Oct 27, 2016

Bilo said:
Sure, it's a statement of fact and here's the problem:

If 5 out of a 100 000 lie about their age, your statement is true. If 20 000 out of a 100 000 lie about their age, your statement is true. And there's no reliable research on the subject because the validation affects the outcome. As such, it's a very unreliable fact to base an opinion on. You have to assume, without proof, that the number is closer to 20 000 than than 5, because if only 5 out of a 100 000 lie about their age, it's not worth spending money, time and resources on, I'm sure you agree.

I'm not arguing for dental checks, I'm refuting the claim that calls for dental checks are obvious examples of racist thinking.

Then you combine this very odd relation to factual statements with saying economic migrants instead of refugees, mass immigration instead of immigration, and that lots of people look older than they actually are, and you've got yourself a generalization based on prejudice disguised as a fact.

This is again a baseless assertion though. You're just telling me what you think other people think and why. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that these people are now economic migrants. A refugee is someone fleeing war or persecution, not someone in a safe place seeking to live in a more preferable safe place. And you can quibble over the validity as mass immigration as a term, especially with regard to this narrow issue, but as part of the broader phenomena facing Europe it's hardly a remarkable turn of phrase.

Essentially, the opinion that age controls are needed is exclusively based on assumptions; namely that immigrants lie about their age to a certain extent. And why does this border racism? Well, let me give you a parallell:

When you go to the United States, you apply for an ESTA, at least if you're Swedish. One of the boxes you have to tick is that you've never been convicted in the court of law. Fact: some lie. Another fact: it isn't validated.

Now, you can of course argue that convicted criminals shouldn't enter the country and of course this should be validated. But here the assumption is that the number is closer to 5 out of a 100 000 than 20 000.

So you've got two identical facts (some lie), with identical reasoning behind it, with two different outcomes. It's not a coincidence that Sweden is a western european country and therefore the assumption is much more favorable than that for immigrants. Now for the record, I'm not necessarily against validation on the ESTA or age controls. I'm merely pointing out that the reasoning behind it is based on assumptions combined with vague facts, such as the one you presented.

What does American immigration control have to do with the British public? And what evidence do you have to suggest that should this issue be brought to the attention of the public, that they would react any differently? You and Lineker are welcome to your suspicions, but if those suspicions turn into accusations that you can't substantiate then you can't complain when people give you shit for it.

Carver · Oct 27, 2016

I find it concerning how the mainstream media would go so far as putting the picture of a dead immigrant child on the news who had drowned, yet when there is a terrorist attack in somewhere like France and children are killed, they would never put any pictures of that up.

Either way I never want to see such appalling and upsetting images, but the mainstream media does show it's true and disturbing bias sometimes, which is why it can't be trusted.

Bilo · Oct 27, 2016

Ebeneezer Goode said:
I'm not arguing for dental checks, I'm refuting the claim that calls for dental checks are obvious examples of racist thinking.

And I was arguing why it tends to be an example of racist thinking.

Ebeneezer Goode said:
This is again a baseless assertion though. You're just telling me what you think other people think and why. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that these people are now economic migrants. A refugee is someone fleeing war or persecution, not someone in a safe place seeking to live in a more preferable safe place. And you can quibble over the validity as mass immigration as a term, especially with regard to this narrow issue, but as part of the broader phenomena facing Europe it's hardly a remarkable turn of phrase.

Most of my post was about making assumption unfavorable for immigrants as a group. Count your assumptions in this block of text. Then ask yourself, for each assumption, which group is it directly unfavorable for?

Ebeneezer Goode said:
What does American immigration control have to do with the British public? And what evidence do you have to suggest that should this issue be brought to the attention of the public, that they would react any differently? You and Lineker are welcome to your suspicions, but if those suspicions turn into accusations that you can't substantiate then you can't complain when people give you shit for it.

It has lots to do with it. This debate goes on pretty much in exactly the same way in ever Western country right now. I used it as an example because I knew it well and because the parallell is so bleeding obvious I shouldn't have to explain it twice. Assumptions are favorable for whites, negative for immigrants, and that borders racism. That was just an example, you'll find many more if you stop grasping at straws and actually look it up yourself. I'm sure you have many, many similar laws in Britain.

As for it not being brought to public; that's a symptom rather than an explanation to be fair. It doesn't take take much to see the pattern and at least realize where Lineker is coming from.

Carver said:
which is why it can't be trusted.

See what I mean Captain Scumbag?

.V. · Oct 27, 2016

Carver said:
I find it concerning how the mainstream media would go so far as putting the picture of a dead immigrant child on the news who had drowned, yet when there is a terrorist attack in somewhere like France and children are killed, they would never put any pictures of that up.

Either way I never want to see such appalling and upsetting images, but the mainstream media does show it's true and disturbing bias sometimes, which is why it can't be trusted.

Stopped reading at mainstream media; that's just my policy on Internet forums and Twitter I'm afraid.

mnb089mnb · Oct 27, 2016

.V. said:
Stopped reading at mainstream media; that's just my policy on Internet forums and Twitter I'm afraid.

9/11 was a hoax, the earth is flat. etc.

Ian_Wrexham · Oct 27, 2016

Carver said:
I find it concerning how the mainstream media would go so far as putting the picture of a dead immigrant child on the news who had drowned, yet when there is a terrorist attack in somewhere like France and children are killed, they would never put any pictures of that up.

Either way I never want to see such appalling and upsetting images, but the mainstream media does show it's true and disturbing bias sometimes, which is why it can't be trusted.

It's weird how you can read something that, if you ignore any context that you know of the author's views, agree with every sentence. But that's true of this. On a very literal basis, I agree with it, but knowing what the Carver actually meant, he's chatting absolute nonsense.

Probably wishful thinking to hope Barthes was right though.

Carver · Oct 27, 2016

Well we voted out, more people in the UK see immigration as a problem.

What's done is done.

Abertawe · Oct 27, 2016

People see immigration as a problem because they're not looking at the root cause, they're conditioned to blame anything but the cause. What I despise is the pretentious self titled degree educated liberal plebs on here (of which there are many) who like assert some sort of moral standing by lambasting those suffering from the effect of immigration as racist therefor irrelevant to debate. Those are the worst type of conditioned people. The tradesman who gets undercut because there are plenty of cheap foreign gangs about (and who can blame em, not many young people would turn up the chance to party in another country and get paid substantially more than they would otherwise be earning) isn't entitled to an opinion because they are racist therefor defunct from the discussion table. It's quite simple. We want EU nationals with 1sts in medicine, chemistry, engineering et al just a block on working class european nationals coming over here. That way we get to keep & continue to attract people who can save or improve our lives and increase wages for the working class of this country. Obviously some things will be affected. Should Pagnell opt to take the punt on the conservatory extension he's been mulling over for 16 years it'll likely cost him more on the labour. Should the EU wish to raise tariffs as a result of us not continuing to improve the wages of their working class then we'll go to the eastside & chill with the Oriental homeboys.

Martino Knockavelli · Oct 27, 2016

Abertawe said:
What I despise is the pretentious *self titled degree educated liberal plebs on here (of which there are many) who like assert some sort of moral standing by lambasting those suffering from the effect of immigration as racist therefor irrelevant to debate.

soi-disant

Abertawe · Oct 27, 2016

Martino Knockavelli said:
soi-disant

I had to look that up. As a result of looking up I have added to my vocabulary which can only be counted as a blessing, thank you for adding value to my life today, you didn't seek reward or adulation, makes it all the sweeter.

Ian_Wrexham · Oct 28, 2016

Abertawe said:
People see immigration as a problem because they're not looking at the root cause, they're conditioned to blame anything but the cause. What I despise is the pretentious self titled degree educated liberal plebs on here (of which there are many) who like assert some sort of moral standing by lambasting those suffering from the effect of immigration as racist therefor irrelevant to debate. Those are the worst type of conditioned people. The tradesman who gets undercut because there are plenty of cheap foreign gangs about (and who can blame em, not many young people would turn up the chance to party in another country and get paid substantially more than they would otherwise be earning) isn't entitled to an opinion because they are racist therefor defunct from the discussion table. It's quite simple. We want EU nationals with 1sts in medicine, chemistry, engineering et al just a block on working class european nationals coming over here. That way we get to keep & continue to attract people who can save or improve our lives and increase wages for the working class of this country. Obviously some things will be affected. Should Pagnell opt to take the punt on the conservatory extension he's been mulling over for 16 years it'll likely cost him more on the labour. Should the EU wish to raise tariffs as a result of us not continuing to improve the wages of their working class then we'll go to the eastside & chill with the Oriental homeboys.

I live in an area of high immigration. I live in an area where there's lots of poverty, where housing is precarious and eye-wateringly expensive, where jobs are increasingly insecure, where desperately-needed public services are slashed to the bone. Many of the people I know in my local area - degree or not - feel like their lives are pretty precarious - that they're a bout of sickness or an accident or a sick relative or a vindictive landlord, or a government cut away from poverty and homelessness. Such is the high-life of the Metropolitan Elite.

And yet hardly anyone I speak to blames their problems on immigrants. Some do, of course - and white people don't have a monopoly on blaming migrants for their troubles. Immigration has been such a constant in this area for maybe a hundred years or more, while economic hardship ebbs and flows. People are more likely to direct the blame at local and national government, or, alternatively, yuppies and gentrification.

The places where people blame migrants for economic difficulties tend to be places where there is a relatively small amount of migration, or where it's a recent phenomenon. I get concerns about undercutting, but it's worth remembering that EU expansion came during a massive construction boom where a shortage of skilled labour led to certain tradesmen being able to name their prices. That was never going to last - with or without unrestricted Polish migration.

And, as Australians have found, restrictive immigration policies leads to skilled labour shortages and rampant illegal working (and exploitation of migrant labour for below minimum wage). And it has a higher unemployment rate than the UK (and some 15% lower labour participation rate than the UK). Almost like building concentration camps for refugees on islands has achieved very little.

johnnytodd · Oct 28, 2016

Ian_Wrexham said:
I live in an area of high immigration. I live in an area where there's lots of poverty, where housing is precarious and eye-wateringly expensive, where jobs are increasingly insecure, where desperately-needed public services are slashed to the bone. Many of the people I know in my local area - degree or not - feel like their lives are pretty precarious - that they're a bout of sickness or an accident or a sick relative or a vindictive landlord, or a government cut away from poverty and homelessness. Such is the high-life of the Metropolitan Elite.

And yet hardly anyone I speak to blames their problems on immigrants. Some do, of course - and white people don't have a monopoly on blaming migrants for their troubles. Immigration has been such a constant in this area for maybe a hundred years or more, while economic hardship ebbs and flows. People are more likely to direct the blame at local and national government, or, alternatively, yuppies and gentrification.

The places where people blame migrants for economic difficulties tend to be places where there is a relatively small amount of migration, or where it's a recent phenomenon. I get concerns about undercutting, but it's worth remembering that EU expansion came during a massive construction boom where a shortage of skilled labour led to certain tradesmen being able to name their prices. That was never going to last - with or without unrestricted Polish migration.

And, as Australians have found, restrictive immigration policies leads to skilled labour shortages and rampant illegal working (and exploitation of migrant labour for below minimum wage). And it has a higher unemployment rate than the UK (and some 15% lower labour participation rate than the UK). Almost like building concentration camps for refugees on islands has achieved very little.

I agree Wrexham is one hell of a shithole

Ian_Wrexham · Oct 28, 2016

Just to add that I hate "look at the economic benefits of immigration" arguments of the type I've just advanced because a) they don't really convince any of the people who are feeling the pinch and b) sort of suggest that you'd be happy to throw migrants under the bus if they stopped providing surplus value to the economy which I assume for most of us isn't the case.

But it being a bad argument doesn't mean it isn't true.

.V. · Nov 1, 2016

Leave backer tells clients to prepare for inflation and a recession.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/crisp...-recession-higher-inflation-2016-11?r=US&IR=T

Look Out There Are Llamas · Nov 1, 2016

Ian_Wrexham said:
The places where people blame migrants for economic difficulties tend to be places where there is a relatively small amount of migration, or where it's a recent phenomenon. I get concerns about undercutting, but it's worth remembering that EU expansion came during a massive construction boom where a shortage of skilled labour led to certain tradesmen being able to name their prices. That was never going to last - with or without unrestricted Polish migration.

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...main-or-did-they-britains-immigration-paradox

Habbinalan · Nov 2, 2016

This great leap to freedom is feeling more like stepping into quicksand every day that goes by.

http://capx.co/theresa-mays-great-repeal-bill-is-a-cunning-contradiction/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...EUROPP+-+European+Politics+and+Policy+at+LSE)

Abertawe · Nov 2, 2016

When & where did you experience stepping into quicksand?

johnnytodd · Nov 2, 2016

Business up 30% for me cheers lids.

Habbinalan · Nov 2, 2016

Abertawe said:
When & where did you experience stepping into quicksand?

Morecambe Bay (nr Allithwaite) and Duddon Estuary (more than once), in the 60s, whilst treading for Flooks usually. I never had any problems at Flookburgh.

Abertawe · Nov 2, 2016

Habbinalan said:
Morecambe Bay (nr Allithwaite) and Duddon Estuary (more than once), in the 60s, whilst treading for Flooks usually. I never had any problems at Flookburgh.

Wtf is Flooks?

We call quicksand granny's custard down in Wales. Fucking killer. Apparently it's the left over of tree's from 1000's of years ago.

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