Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[mnb089mnb]

Who said there had been a huge increase in murder?

It was inferred, just like when you inferred that Modernist said these attacks were normal.

People have always been horrible, they're just being horrible in different ways nowadays.

 

[Aber gas]

Oh sorry I thought it was quite simple. If a priest getting beheaded in france is normal after disabled people are knifed to death in Japan, when less than 24 hours earlier people had been shot at a Florida night club and Killed at a German Music Festival.

Thats not normal and shows acts of violence are getting out of control by terrorists/lone wolfs/ mentally unwell people.

Atrocities, murders etc happen every year so it is normal really. Pick a year, any year and you'll find shit happening.

 

[mnb089mnb]

It's the usual "What on earth is happening these days!?"/"This country is going to the dogs!"/ etc. etc. etc.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Two IS affiliated nutters carrying out a beheading in a church in a seemingly random small village in France, ridiculous. Guess the intention is to create a fear that if it happens there, then it could be anywhere.

The news really is appalling, almost every day now there's some crazy act. Certainly doesn't seem normal or previously as regular to me, in respect of extremist acts.

 

[Modernist]

I think we are exposed it it a lot more than we used to be, social media, 24 hour news, the ability to follow every incident. So that probably lends itself to making people believe these are more common.

Plus I think a lot of those people who do believe these incidents are more frequent are quite young...but thats just a guess.

 

[Aber gas]

It's the usual "What on earth is happening these days!?"/"This country is going to the dogs!"/ etc. etc. etc.

"Hell in a handcart" oh yes

 

[mnb089mnb]

Two IS affiliated nutters carrying out a beheading in a church in a seemingly random small village in France, ridiculous. Guess the intention is to create a fear that if it happens there, then it could be anywhere.

IS affiliated? I guess they weren't fully paid up members then?

Genuinely surprised that IS haven't claimed responsibility for England's loss to Iceland at Euro 2016. Chancers.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

I think we are exposed it it a lot more than we used to be, social media, 24 hour news, the ability to follow every incident. So that probably lends itself to making people believe these are more common.

Plus I think a lot of those people who do believe these incidents are more frequent are quite young...but thats just a guess.

The proliferation of 24 hour news hasn't changed in the last 6-12 months. The proliferation of extremist acts around Europe in that time certainly seems to have changed, especially the last couple months, to my simple mind as a consumer of said news. Not even getting into the USA gun related stupidity which really is literally every day, and to be fair has been for a long time.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

IS affiliated? I guess they weren't fully paid up members then?

Genuinely surprised that IS haven't claimed responsibility for England's loss to Iceland at Euro 2016. Chancers.

Police say one of them tried to join IS in Syria last year. So yeah, if true I'd say that's a fair description.

 

[Aber gas]

It might seem that the world is more violent. We have constant media coverage which is quite happy to imply and link every incident with a group. So we make decisions about incidents before the facts are known, see the clamour on this forum after the Munich shooting. It creates fear and a sense of impending disaster when the truth is that unfortunately people have an awful habit of being c*** to each other whatever the year.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Police say one of them tried to join IS in Syria last year. So yeah, if true I'd say that's a fair description.

If he was affiliated it means he was actually a member.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Here's a list of terrorist incidents related to ISIL. Obviously there may be some missing as it's a wiki page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_linked_to_ISIL

Make your own minds up if that list suggests there's a crazy incident "almost every day".


Ultimately I think talking up terrorists by saying their members are perpetrating attacks almost every single day when it's not actually true is very unhelpful. It's exactly what the terrorists want you to believe and say.

 

[Christian Slater]

A good example of modern media hype is shootings in America. It appears as if there's an endemic with gun violence now, but the truth is it was much, much worse in the '80s.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I think people are being deliberately obtuse if they refuse to grasp the difference between random acts of violence and a war being waged on the West by extremist Jihadis. We can accept that a minority of people will commit heinous acts for lust or greed or whatever because that's human nature, but this is something new, something to be tackled, and something that deserves a lot more attention.

 

[Christian Slater]

There's been a war on the West by Islamic extremists for decades, everyone knows about it.

 

[Aber gas]

You don't think the last knockings of Daesh receive enough attention? Increasingly, violent acts are attributed to them with no or tenuous evidence which give the impression that they are more powerful than they are. Credulous people are doing the terrorists job for them.

 

[Abertawe]

Looking at these graphs it does show there has been a dramatic spike within the past couple of years but it's lagging some way behind the numbers seen in the 70's & 80's. I don't think discrediting someone and trying to make them look a tit for saying there has been an increase is warranted. Yes the news absolutely love this shit but we've not seen these events in mainland Europe for an age, certainly in my lifetime. Scary times at the moment, the establishment will be kicked into touch as a result, it's what happens when they're gone is gonna be the important thing, it'll either subside or get a whole lot worse.

 

[Abertawe]

This is quite an eerily accurate prediction as to what we've seen during the past decade.

Written back in 2005 by a Jordanian journalist called Fouad Hussein.

An Islamic Caliphate in Seven Easy Steps

In the introduction, the Jordanian journalist writes, "I interviewed a whole range of al-Qaida members with different ideologies to get an idea of how the war between the terrorists and Washington would develop in the future." What he then describes between pages 202 and 213 is a scenario, proof both of the terrorists' blindness as well as their brutal single-mindedness. In seven phases the terror network hopes to establish an Islamic caliphate which the West will then be too weak to fight.

• The First Phase Known as "the awakening" -- this has already been carried out and was supposed to have lasted from 2000 to 2003, or more precisely from the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 in New York and Washington to the fall of Baghdad in 2003. The aim of the attacks of 9/11 was to provoke the US into declaring war on the Islamic world and thereby "awakening" Muslims. "The first phase was judged by the strategists and masterminds behind al-Qaida as very successful," writes Hussein. "The battle field was opened up and the Americans and their allies became a closer and easier target." The terrorist network is also reported as being satisfied that its message can now be heard "everywhere."
  
  
• The Second Phase "Opening Eyes" is, according to Hussein's definition, the period we are now in and should last until 2006. Hussein says the terrorists hope to make the western conspiracy aware of the "Islamic community." Hussein believes this is a phase in which al-Qaida wants an organization to develop into a movement. The network is banking on recruiting young men during this period. Iraq should become the center for all global operations, with an "army" set up there and bases established in other Arabic states.
  
  
• The Third Phase This is described as "Arising and Standing Up" and should last from 2007 to 2010. "There will be a focus on Syria," prophesies Hussein, based on what his sources told him. The fighting cadres are supposedly already prepared and some are in Iraq. Attacks on Turkey and -- even more explosive -- in Israel are predicted. Al-Qaida's masterminds hope that attacks on Israel will help the terrorist group become a recognized organization. The author also believes that countries neighboring Iraq, such as Jordan, are also in danger.
  
  
• The Fourth Phase Between 2010 and 2013, Hussein writes that al-Qaida will aim to bring about the collapse of the hated Arabic governments. The estimate is that "the creeping loss of the regimes' power will lead to a steady growth in strength within al-Qaida." At the same time attacks will be carried out against oil suppliers and the US economy will be targeted using cyber terrorism.
  
  
• The Fifth Phase This will be the point at which an Islamic state, or caliphate, can be declared. The plan is that by this time, between 2013 and 2016, Western influence in the Islamic world will be so reduced and Israel weakened so much, that resistance will not be feared. Al-Qaida hopes that by then the Islamic state will be able to bring about a new world order.
  
  
• The Sixth Phase Hussein believes that from 2016 onwards there will a period of "total confrontation." As soon as the caliphate has been declared the "Islamic army" it will instigate the "fight between the believers and the non-believers" which has so often been predicted by Osama bin Laden.
  
  
• The Seventh Phase This final stage is described as "definitive victory." Hussein writes that in the terrorists' eyes, because the rest of the world will be so beaten down by the "one-and-a-half billion Muslims," the caliphate will undoubtedly succeed. This phase should be completed by 2020, although the war shouldn't last longer than two years.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

 

[Abertawe]

Could they not have used a better term than "vehicle ramming"?

 

[Benito]

Both of these men withought doubt posessed the signs of mental illness and were consuming alcohol before this isolated occurrence. Meanwhile the residents are arranging a candle lit vigil, some flower laying and face painting followed by a recital of Kumbaya.

Could be a far-right attack ?

 

[mnb089mnb]

Almost every month, perpetrated in general by people unaffiliated to IS.

Not sure we are "at war" with these sorts of terrorists either as there's almost no structure to it.

I know many have derided people for saying they'd "pray for Paris" Jr the idea of "changing your avatar", buy what do you actually do to stop it?

 

[TheMinsterman]

Almost every month, perpetrated in general by people unaffiliated to IS.

Not sure we are "at war" with these sorts of terrorists either as there's almost no structure to it.

I know many have derided people for saying they'd "pray for Paris" Jr the idea of "changing your avatar", buy what do you actually do to stop it?

Drop a few more bombs on innocent families and radicalise the next generation of terrorists? Allow the media to foster hatred and to perpetuate ridiculous stereotypes to further divide communities and sell stories from the fear their fires generate? Continue to half ass our response and prepare no realistic long term strategy to providing stability in the regions where radicalism grows? Continue to buy Saudi oil and support their export of radical Islam?

 

[Stevencc]

Drop a few more bombs on innocent families and radicalise the next generation of terrorists? Allow the media to foster hatred and to perpetuate ridiculous stereotypes to further divide communities and sell stories from the fear their fires generate? Continue to half ass our response and prepare no realistic long term strategy to providing stability in the regions where radicalism grows? Continue to buy Saudi oil and support their export of radical Islam?

You are right to ridicule those "strategies".

There has to be a middle ground between WAGING WAR ON ISLAM AND BOMBING CHILDREN and pretending there isn't a problem with a minority of influential extremists that nestle in offshoots of the religion, though.

I've got no idea what it is but this section of the forum seems to be almost completely polarised at each end of the spectrum.

 

[TheMinsterman]

You are right to ridicule those "strategies".

There has to be a middle ground between WAGING WAR ON ISLAM AND BOMBING CHILDREN and pretending there isn't a problem with a minority of influential extremists that nestle in offshoots of the religion, though.

I've got no idea what it is but this section of the forum seems to be almost completely polarised at each end of the spectrum.

We have this bizarre situation where people think any sort of defence of Islam is basically head in the sand idiocy that ignores the problem or any criticism of Islam is rabid nationalistic right wing bigotry.

There is a middle ground, it requires people willing to wade into the grey areas, accept the presence of nuance and perhaps confront uncomfortable facts which are neither easy to solve or particularly palatable. Some need to be willing to be critical of aspects of Islam and understand it doesn't de facto make them bigots, whilst others need to understand their blaise broad strokes criticism of "Muslims" completely lacks nuance and dehumanises and homogenises vast swathes of people who regardless of what they think DO have personal agency and differing relationships with their faith.

Radical Islam is a problem, it has many roots which have allowed it to grow and it has many heads with which it strikes out at the innocent. Cutting off the heads in an act of aggressive retaliation merely allows another to grow in it's place, we need to understand it's roots whilst also being weary of those heads.

It's not comfortable but it may required a concerted, long term, stabilising effort in the regions which are unstable and creating the problems. Part of that will involve embracing our culpability in the problems, listening to some things we may not like and accepting that we need to make a long term commitment that transcends political convenience.

 

[Stevencc]

We have this bizarre situation where people think any sort of defence of Islam is basically head in the sand idiocy that ignores the problem or any criticism of Islam is rabid nationalistic right wing bigotry.

There is a middle ground, it requires people willing to wade into the grey areas, accept the presence of nuance and perhaps confront uncomfortable facts which are neither easy to solve or particularly palatable. Some need to be willing to be critical of aspects of Islam and understand it doesn't de facto make them bigots, whilst others need to understand their blaise broad strokes criticism of "Muslims" completely lacks nuance and dehumanises and homogenises vast swathes of people who regardless of what they think DO have personal agency and differing relationships with their faith.

Radical Islam is a problem, it has many roots which have allowed it to grow and it has many heads with which it strikes out at the innocent. Cutting off the heads in an act of aggressive retaliation merely allows another to grow in it's place, we need to understand it's roots whilst also being weary of those heads.

It's not comfortable but it may required a concerted, long term, stabilising effort in the regions which are unstable and creating the problems. Part of that will involve embracing our culpability in the problems, listening to some things we may not like and accepting that we need to make a long term commitment that transcends political convenience.

Brilliantly put.

 

[Krazy8]

I never said these were normal

My apologies if I misunderstood your post but I took "Incidents happen every day always have" to mean that what is happening at the moment has always been happening.

It was inferred

If you read it at face value you can see it wasn't. I said there have been more attacks (which there have), nothing to do with the amount of people killed.

Atrocities, murders etc happen every year so it is normal really. Pick a year, any year and you'll find shit happening.

It's the usual "What on earth is happening these days!?"/"This country is going to the dogs!"/ etc. etc. etc.

Shit happens all the time yeah, but terrorism doesn't. Similar to Ebeneezer Goode's and Abertawe's posts all you have to do is have a look at terrorist attacks in France, Belgium, Germany etc to see a dramatic rise in the last couple of years. What can't speak can't lie Rodders.

Terrorist Incidents in France
2000 - Bombing
2001 - No Incident
2002 - No Incident
2003 - Bombing
2004 - Bombing
2005 - No Incident
2006 - No Incident
2007 - Shooting
2008 - No Incident
2009 - No Incident
2010 - Shooting
2011 - No Incident
2012 - Shooting
2013 - Stabbing
2014 - Stabbing
- Vehicle Ramming
- Vehicle Ramming
2015 - Shooting
- Stabbing
- Shooting
- Beheading
- Shooting and Stabbing
2016 - Vehicle Ramming
- Stabbing
- Stabbing
- Vehicle Ramming and Shooting
- Stabbing
- Shootings, Hostage Taking, Bombing

I never said these were normal. Just trying to clarify your statement. Maybe because its on the news you think these attacks are more frequent, or do you mean more frequent in europe?

because neither are.

I was talking about attacks being more frequent in Europe, Western Europe in particular. It's in denial to think it's down to 24 hour news, social media etc and that there hasn't actually been a rise in attacks.

Myself and DarkSithLord's comments yesterday said there had simply been a rise in attacks (which like I said, I personally didn't think was open to debate, appears I was wrong), as opposed to who carried out the attacks, why they did so, and how to stop it happening again (which obviously are all open to debate). Maybe that caused some confusion.

 

[mnb089mnb]

An increase in attacks in one part of Europe. I was talking about it from a global perspective, which is what this thread has turned into despite it being a French/Belgian one in the title.

Though, again, clearly not almost every single day.

Talk of IS members carrying out these attacks rather than them being IS inspired.
Talk of it being "out of control".
Bigging up IS and their effect on our every day lives.
Don't let terrorists terrorise you.
Stop doing their job for them.

 

[silkyman]

This is quite an eerily accurate prediction as to what we've seen during the past decade.

Written back in 2005 by a Jordanian journalist called Fouad Hussein.

An Islamic Caliphate in Seven Easy Steps

In the introduction, the Jordanian journalist writes, "I interviewed a whole range of al-Qaida members with different ideologies to get an idea of how the war between the terrorists and Washington would develop in the future." What he then describes between pages 202 and 213 is a scenario, proof both of the terrorists' blindness as well as their brutal single-mindedness. In seven phases the terror network hopes to establish an Islamic caliphate which the West will then be too weak to fight.

• The First Phase Known as "the awakening" -- this has already been carried out and was supposed to have lasted from 2000 to 2003, or more precisely from the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 in New York and Washington to the fall of Baghdad in 2003. The aim of the attacks of 9/11 was to provoke the US into declaring war on the Islamic world and thereby "awakening" Muslims. "The first phase was judged by the strategists and masterminds behind al-Qaida as very successful," writes Hussein. "The battle field was opened up and the Americans and their allies became a closer and easier target." The terrorist network is also reported as being satisfied that its message can now be heard "everywhere."
  
  
• The Second Phase "Opening Eyes" is, according to Hussein's definition, the period we are now in and should last until 2006. Hussein says the terrorists hope to make the western conspiracy aware of the "Islamic community." Hussein believes this is a phase in which al-Qaida wants an organization to develop into a movement. The network is banking on recruiting young men during this period. Iraq should become the center for all global operations, with an "army" set up there and bases established in other Arabic states.
  
  
• The Third Phase This is described as "Arising and Standing Up" and should last from 2007 to 2010. "There will be a focus on Syria," prophesies Hussein, based on what his sources told him. The fighting cadres are supposedly already prepared and some are in Iraq. Attacks on Turkey and -- even more explosive -- in Israel are predicted. Al-Qaida's masterminds hope that attacks on Israel will help the terrorist group become a recognized organization. The author also believes that countries neighboring Iraq, such as Jordan, are also in danger.
  
  
• The Fourth Phase Between 2010 and 2013, Hussein writes that al-Qaida will aim to bring about the collapse of the hated Arabic governments. The estimate is that "the creeping loss of the regimes' power will lead to a steady growth in strength within al-Qaida." At the same time attacks will be carried out against oil suppliers and the US economy will be targeted using cyber terrorism.
  
  
• The Fifth Phase This will be the point at which an Islamic state, or caliphate, can be declared. The plan is that by this time, between 2013 and 2016, Western influence in the Islamic world will be so reduced and Israel weakened so much, that resistance will not be feared. Al-Qaida hopes that by then the Islamic state will be able to bring about a new world order.
  
  
• The Sixth Phase Hussein believes that from 2016 onwards there will a period of "total confrontation." As soon as the caliphate has been declared the "Islamic army" it will instigate the "fight between the believers and the non-believers" which has so often been predicted by Osama bin Laden.
  
  
• The Seventh Phase This final stage is described as "definitive victory." Hussein writes that in the terrorists' eyes, because the rest of the world will be so beaten down by the "one-and-a-half billion Muslims," the caliphate will undoubtedly succeed. This phase should be completed by 2020, although the war shouldn't last longer than two years.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html

That seems quite accurate early on but falls down as they haven't weakened Israel and are a way off where he predicted for 2016. There seems to be a bit of a gap to bridge between the last two. You could suggest that they are trying to kickstart the total confrontation element, but from there to 'aaaand, we win' is a huge leap. Even if the entire Muslim population of the western world did try and rise up as one, they would be more likely to be wiped out than actually succeed, because the %s are so small.

 

[sl1k]

When I was young and less appreciative of the complexities of our global reality, even though I was socialised through the British education system, it was still possible to convince me of a Western agenda against Muslims by simply looking at the state of the Islamic world, the part played in it by the West and the lack of desire to make a meaningful difference. Fuck making a difference, it just looked like things were being allowed to progressively worsen and no one gave a fuck cos it was brown people on the other side of the world feeling the brunt of it.

As I grew up and became well learned in the political landscape and truly understood the values that British society represents I quite easily identified the gaps of knowledge that previously made me quite easy to radicalise.

See, in the vast areas of the Middle East they don't have the luxury of a competent state run education system that is widespread. They don't have the luxury of growing up in a stable environment and inclusive society where everyone is equal. They don't have the luxury of the opportunities to change their lives. It's these people and communities more often than not that bombs drop on. It's these people who Western backed dictators (while they are convenient) torture kill and dump into mass graves. It's these people who suffer when we arm groups who we believe would act as a proxy for our interests, but then end up pursuing their own regional interests.

If I grew up in these circumstances, if I were a Muslim I'd be a Jihadi. If I were a Christian I'd be a crusader. If I were an Atheist, I'd be a really pissed off individual loading my guns sharpening my knives and packing my bombs. Cos what the fuck have I got to lose, I'm not waiting to die into irrelevance.

Just a perspective I thought I'd chuck into this thread.