European Union Referendum

[mowgli]

Most of those signing that letter are Tory donors or pay piss poor wages so want cheap labour coming in from Europe,i'm more interested in major companies who havn't signed it.

 

[Aber gas]

Most of those signing that letter are Tory donors or pay piss poor wages so want cheap labour coming in from Europe,i'm more interested in major companies who havn't signed it.

Wages won't rise because we are out of the EU mate. We are not necessarily going to stop immigration either.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The less of a surplus of workers there is the more companies need to compete for employees, which usually means raising wages. This all assumes that the post-EU deal wouldn't include free movement. I think there will be intense pressure form the EU to keep it however, and I suspect Labour and the Conservatives will favour it too. That puts whoever runs the country at the time in a very difficult position, because signing the country up to open borders after we've voted in a referendum against them would surely be something that any government would never live down.

 

[George Reilly's Hairpiece]

Big business hasn't got a great track record when it comes to Europe. We'd be in the Euro now if the general consensus had their way when our joining it was under consideration.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

The less of a surplus of workers there is the more companies need to compete for employees, which usually means raising wages. This all assumes that the post-EU deal wouldn't include free movement. I think there will be intense pressure form the EU to keep it however, and I suspect Labour and the Conservatives will favour it too. That puts whoever runs the country at the time in a very difficult position, because signing the country up to open borders after we've voted in a referendum against them would surely be something that any government would never live down.

That would be political suicide as you say.
I'd imagine in the event of an OUT vote that some middle ground would be found that isn't quite free movement from EU nations but is a streamlined process for EU entrants, and that becomes negotiation leverage for other issues between EU and theoretical Indie Britain.

 

[Aber gas]

We don't have a surplus of workers now, there are certainly jobs available. It's the jobs that have changed. British manufacturing and industry is at a low ebb so unskilled workers now find jobs in the service industry. These jobs are often part time, un-unionised and low paid. This isn't the fault of immigrants or immigration policy. To believe that by shutting borders well paid, secure employment is suddenly going to spring up is deluded beyond belief.

 

[mowgli]

That would be political suicide as you say.
I'd imagine in the event of an OUT vote that some middle ground would be found that isn't quite free movement from EU nations but is a streamlined process for EU entrants, and that becomes negotiation leverage for other issues between EU and theoretical Indie Britain.

I would like an Australian type system that only lets in those who benefit their country and not those who turn up skint expecting to rely on the state.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

We don't have a surplus of workers now, there are certainly jobs available. It's the jobs that have changed. British manufacturing and industry is at a low ebb so unskilled workers now find jobs in the service industry. These jobs are often part time, un-unionised and low paid. This isn't the fault of immigrants or immigration policy. To believe that by shutting borders well paid, secure employment is suddenly going to spring up is deluded beyond belief.

We certainly do have a surplus of workers depending on which industry you're talking about. An unskilled worker moving from manufacturing into the services industry says absolutely nothing about skilled tradesmen or engineers undercutting their British peers because they're willing to work for less money. It's never been about arbitrarily cutting immigration figures, it's about having the capability to control it when and where we need to, an ability that we currently don't have inside the EU.

That said, you're probably right about us potentially not reducing immigration under the current Labour or Conservative governments, because both of them have proven, despite what they say, that they have no real interest in reducing immigration at all. While Cameron pledges to get numbers in the tens of thousands, the numbers are closer to a third of a million.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

 

[Aber gas]

We certainly do have a surplus of workers depending on which industry you're talking about. An unskilled worker moving from manufacturing into the services industry says absolutely nothing about skilled tradesmen or engineers undercutting their British peers because they're willing to work for less money. It's never been about arbitrarily cutting immigration figures, it's about having the capability to control it when and where we need to, an ability that we currently don't have inside the EU.

That said, you're probably right about us potentially not reducing immigration under the current Labour or Conservative governments, because both of them have proven, despite what they say, that they have no real interest in reducing immigration at all. While Cameron pledges to get numbers in the tens of thousands, the numbers are closer to a third of a million.

So why are industry leaders continuously bemoaning a skills gap? If we have a surplus of skilled workers that are being undercut why is the CBI blaming a lack of skilled workers especially in engineering for slowing Britains economic growth?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The CBI represent businesses, not workers. That said, even if we take them at their word, they're obviously painting in broad strokes and not talking about every single profession out there. Also, unless I'm reading a different report, they never actually said that there was a skills shortage today, what they found was that 55% of businesses fear there might be one in the near future. And even then, the fear came from the quality of apprenticeships rather than the lack of people in said sector needing to be made up for my migrants.

 

[Aber gas]

I'm not sure why the representative interests of the CBI are relevant in this case but fine.
Which professions and trades are affected by a skills surplus then?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I'm not sure why the representative interests of the CBI are relevant in this case but fine.

Because the people the CBI represent obviously want a surplus of workers that they can pay less, so minimizing the phenomena of undercutting is in their best interests.

Which professions and trades are affected by a skills surplus then?

Well I've seen it first hand with plumbers and plasterers I know. It's more difficult to imagine how something like this could not be happening then how it could, with the uncontrolled mass migration than we have right now. Granted it's much less of a problem now than it was during the economic meltdown, but it hasn't completely gone away either. Another problem is this reliance on migrants to do menial jobs that Britons are apparently too good for. That requires a totally unsustainable migration model too.

 

[SUTSS]

The big issue with undercutting is surely to do with the exploitation of east european workers that companies get away with. There is a well-known turkey farm around here that used to be a place where local people could work, especially in the factory over the Christmas period, that is know almost exclusively staffed by east europeans. The reason for this isn't because they work harder or that British people think they are too good for the jobs it is because the company brings them over, puts them up in accommodation that they own and charge them excessive rent for really meagre accommodation and thus is effectively paying them below the minimum wage. I know of at least two other places that adopt similar practices. This could be stopped by changing legislation here and wouldn't require leaving the EU to solve, and leaving the EU probably wouldn't solve it with legislative change.

 

[johnnytodd]

The majority of the UK don't give a toss about in or out, the thought of watching upper class wankers and middle class bell ends talking about this for 4 months makes my head hurt..........just remember the MAJORITY don't care anymore and that's the country you created.

 

[johnnytodd]

The big issue with undercutting is surely to do with the exploitation of east european workers that companies get away with. There is a well-known turkey farm around here that used to be a place where local people could work, especially in the factory over the Christmas period, that is know almost exclusively staffed by east europeans. The reason for this isn't because they work harder or that British people think they are too good for the jobs it is because the company brings them over, puts them up in accommodation that they own and charge them excessive rent for really meagre accommodation and thus is effectively paying them below the minimum wage. I know of at least two other places that adopt similar practices. This could be stopped by changing legislation here and wouldn't require leaving the EU to solve, and leaving the EU probably wouldn't solve it with legislative change.

Auf Wiedersehen Pet

 

[Alty]

The big issue with undercutting is surely to do with the exploitation of east european workers that companies get away with. There is a well-known turkey farm around here that used to be a place where local people could work, especially in the factory over the Christmas period, that is know almost exclusively staffed by east europeans. The reason for this isn't because they work harder or that British people think they are too good for the jobs it is because the company brings them over, puts them up in accommodation that they own and charge them excessive rent for really meagre accommodation and thus is effectively paying them below the minimum wage. I know of at least two other places that adopt similar practices. This could be stopped by changing legislation here and wouldn't require leaving the EU to solve, and leaving the EU probably wouldn't solve it with legislative change.

While you're right about the exploitation of immigrants being a real issue and an absolute scandal, EG is also correct in that there's an over supply of labour that makes work harder to find and has a deflationary effect on wages. He's also correct about "they do the jobs that British people won't" being a commonly used argument. It's both morally lamentable and practically unsustainable.

By far and away the easiest way to have avoided these situations would have been to have been outside FMOP. That's a straightforward fact and no amount of bleating about changes to benefits, the creation of a 'hostile environment' etc by Cameron and co. can disguise that.

 

[Tilbury]

I would like an Australian type system that only lets in those who benefit their country and not those who turn up skint expecting to rely on the state.

I suspect when you see how many people that would still be, you'd change your mind.

 

[Alty]

Australian immigration figures are certainly quite high. But they are choosing people they feel would benefit the country, whereas we largely have to wait and see what we get. Obviously if you're just a racist/xenophobe you're not going to be happy until immigration is nil, or practically nil. But I think most people would be satisfied by a sense of there being control.

I went to a talk by the Australian High Commissioner to the UK (a former PM) last year. He was quite open about the Australian plan for the future being to hoover up as much top talent from around the world as possible. Ethically it's somewhat questionable to encourage everyone with skills to leave developing countries, but then I guess each national government's primary obligation is to its own country and the prosperity of its people.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Australian immigration figures are certainly quite high. But they are choosing people they feel would benefit the country, whereas we largely have to wait and see what we get. Obviously if you're just a racist/xenophobe you're not going to be happy until immigration is nil, or practically nil. But I think most people would be satisfied by a sense of there being control.

I went to a talk by the Australian High Commissioner to the UK (a former PM) last year. He was quite open about the Australian plan for the future being to hoover up as much top talent from around the world as possible. Ethically it's somewhat questionable to encourage everyone with skills to leave developing countries, but then I guess each national government's primary obligation is to its own country and the prosperity of its people.

Kevin Rudd perchance? Good PM he was.

 

[Alty]

Kevin Rudd perchance? Good PM he was.

No, Alexander Downer. Actually, having checked, he was Leader of the Opposition and Foreign Secretary but never PM.

Minus 10 geek points for me.

 

[SUTSS]

Should be ashamed of yourself for such a rookie error.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I don't think Australia's immigration and asylum policy is something any country should want to emulate.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/australia/report-australia/
https://www.vice.com/en_au/read/a-l...island-is-pleading-for-their-assisted-suicide

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Most of those signing that letter are Tory donors or pay piss poor wages so want cheap labour coming in from Europe,i'm more interested in major companies who havn't signed it.

Don't worry, I'm sure all the nice, non-exploitative (lol) FTSE 100 companies all heartily endorse the Leave campaign!

 

[liu]

I would like an Australian type system that only lets in those who benefit their country and not those who turn up skint expecting to rely on the state.

Want more evil Chinese?

 

[Alty]

I don't think Australia's immigration and asylum policy is something any country should want to emulate.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/australia/report-australia/
https://www.vice.com/en_au/read/a-l...island-is-pleading-for-their-assisted-suicide

Oh come on. Nobody is saying we should strive to emulate inadequate prisons or immigration removal centres (tbh we have some of those already). The argument here is about a fundamental point of principle. Australia takes its refugees directly from the UN. It refuses to accept people who randomly show up. Is that a sensible approach? Yes, I think it probably is. The numbers of people making the perilous journeys have reduced drastically thanks to Australian Government policy.

The last year for which stats are available shows that Australia took in almost 200,000 permanent migrants, including 14,000 on its humanitarian programme. That's not counting another 400,000 temporary migrants (students, people with short-term business projects etc). I know people love to attack horrible old racist Australia but it doesn't appear to be a view based in reality.

 

[Alty]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...eform-says-former-foreign-secretary-lord-owen

 

[mowgli]

The latest figures out this morning show that net migration has gone up by another 323,000 and that's why i will be voting to leave The EU.

 

[mnb089mnb]

The latest figures out this morning show that net migration has gone up by another 323,000 and that's why i will be voting to leave The EU.

Net migration is now 323,000. It hasn't gone up by 323,000.

 

[mowgli]

Net migration is now 323,000. It hasn't gone up by 323,000.

Yeah i didn't word that quite right.