Incident at London Bridge

[Alty]

Do we really have to talk about campaigning right now?? Fucking hell.

Some idiot at the BBC did the same this morning when interviewing Corbyn. "How do you think this will play in the remaining days of the campaign?". He rightly gave her short shrift.

 

[Jockney]

Do we really have to talk about campaigning right now?? Fucking hell.

Some idiot at the BBC did the same this morning when interviewing Corbyn. "How do you think this will play in the remaining days of the campaign?". He rightly gave her short shrift.

Business as usual tomorrow. You can't talk a big game about not letting the terrorists win and spend the next five days politicising these incidents in the most incendiary ways under the pretext of a grieving period. Besides, the campaIn dovetails nicely. If you want to have these conversations let them happen within the context of the most stark political choice this country's had in decades.

 

[Alty]

Business as usual tomorrow. You can't talk a big game about not letting the terrorists win and spend the next five days politicising these incidents in the most incendiary ways under the pretext of a grieving period. Besides, the campaIn dovetails nicely. If you want to have these conversations let them happen within the context of the most stark political choice this country's had in decades.

I do not have high hopes for a sensible conversation about tackling Islamic extremism taking place in the final crucial days of a campaign. I fear some May-inclined voters leaning towards extreme and illiberal measures and some Corbyn-inclined voters leaning toward a little Englander withdrawal from international affairs mixed with western self-loathing (plus occasional dollops of anti-semitism).

This has got to be an area where the parties strive for a national consensus, surely? It must be doable. I don't want it kicked around as a political football.

 

[Jockney]

I do not have high hopes for a sensible conversation about tackling Islamic extremism taking place in the final crucial days of a campaign. I fear some May-inclined voters leaning towards extreme and illiberal measures and some Corbyn-inclined voters leaning toward a little Englander withdrawal from international affairs mixed with western self-loathing (plus occasional dollops of anti-semitism).

This has got to be an area where the parties strive for a national consensus, surely? It must be doable. I don't want it kicked around as a political football.

I don't have high hopes for a sensible conversation about this *period*, however loosely we are defining 'sensible'. But the conversation, or rather discourse, will persist. You can have the artifice of consensus to make the electoral process run a bit more smoothly, but this is an area that absolutely defies consensus, bound up as it is with our foreign policy interests, cuts to public service provision and the racial and social dynamics of our society. That remains true, wherever you fall on those issues.

 

[Aber gas]

The absolute gall of May. "Ceasing" campaigning and then using her platform for a overtly partisan speech. She is absolutely shameless for using people's grief and anxiety for her own political gain. She should be widely condemned and campaigning should absolutely not be suspended.

 

[Bobbin']

The absolute gall of May. "Ceasing" campaigning and then using her platform for a overtly partisan speech. She is absolutely shameless for using people's grief and anxiety for her own political gain. She should be widely condemned and campaigning should absolutely not be suspended.

Come on mate, she can't win can she?

Slated for coming out and giving a partisan speech which you should expect from any leader, so what if she - as PM made no speech at all? She would be criticised for that too for hiding.

 

[Aber gas]

Come on mate, she can't win can she?

Slated for coming out and giving a partisan speech which you should expect from any leader, so what if she - as PM made no speech at all? She would be criticised for that too for hiding.

There are different types of speeches. Ceasing Party political campaigning and then setting out a specific set of plans whilst your opposition is effectively gagged is the stuff of dictatorship. She's making assumptions about still being PM in a few days time which is obviously not certain.
How would folk feel if Corbyn came out today and made a speech about May's personal and political funding/ arming of Saudi Wahhabism?

 

[The Eyes of Self Actual]

I was thinking they'd be able to take over one of the Middle East countries (Afghanistan, Syria, along those lines), but, i'm not sure if that's too likely.

They already control many countries. Islamic extremists. Syria and Assad are continuing to fight them off but will they hold out, who knows?

They don't want what is written in their holy books: for some reason I doubt it says "kill a bunch of innocent people because they don't have the same beliefs than you". And if it did, they'd want power, so they could then achieve what is written in their holy book easier.

This is what bothers me with the phrase “that’s exactly what the terrorists want”.

Everyone seems to have a phrase like this but it all means “just ignore this and carry on as usual”. Quite pathetic.

The terrorists and ISIS tell you specifically what they want.

They want what is written in their holy books. Which are all quite clear – death to the disbeliever.

Listen to FAKE NEWS or listen to the left (who just want you to “carry on as normal” – everything going to plan!!) but if you want to know why Islamists do what they do, just listen to them. And read their books. It’s not cryptic or difficult. It’s death to the disbeliever.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Listen to FAKE NEWS or listen to the left (who just want you to “carry on as normal” – everything going to plan!!) but if you want to know why Islamists do what they do, just listen to them. And read their books. It’s not cryptic or difficult. It’s death to the disbeliever.

Oh hai it's a couple of long posts by me where I write about the stated motivations of Islamic terrorists. Keep this nonsense up if you insist but you're chatting absolute shit.

http://www.onefootballforum.co.uk/i...-at-manchester-arena.15219/page-5#post-618764
http://www.onefootballforum.co.uk/i...-at-manchester-arena.15219/page-4#post-618706

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You get a bit creative with the truth though. The fact that these attacks are retaliations for Western intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere doesn't somehow negate the crucial religious component. It's not some sort of cosmic coincidence that many of these attacks are perpetrated by recent converts with absolutely zero connection to "their people" beyond their shared faith.

 

[The Eyes of Self Actual]

Oh hai it's a couple of long posts by me where I write about the stated motivations of Islamic terrorists. Keep this nonsense up if you insist but you're chatting absolute shit.

Oh Labours lies sending us to pointless wars is still causing us major problems today. Blair and that Labour government deserve to hang.

But you are naive to think all attacks are because of the West's aggression (which I do agree isn't needed).

They attack all across the world. Libya, Egypt, Philippines, Sweden, Belgium, across Africa, the Middle East, etc...

They attack based on their religion and their religious books. They tell you this themselves. ISIS do.

Remember this isn’t about race and it isn't all Muslims; it is Sunni Muslims that are the problem.

 

[DarkSithLord]

The absolute gall of May. "Ceasing" campaigning and then using her platform for a overtly partisan speech. She is absolutely shameless for using people's grief and anxiety for her own political gain. She should be widely condemned and campaigning should absolutely not be suspended.[/QUOTE]

Here here mate! This is exactly what these barbarians want. An end to Western democracy. Carry on. There will be time for grief.

 

[Abertawe]

What do you think they're hiding? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-government-a7766381.html?cmpid=facebook-post

 

[Bobbin']

There are different types of speeches. Ceasing Party political campaigning and then setting out a specific set of plans whilst your opposition is effectively gagged is the stuff of dictatorship. She's making assumptions about still being PM in a few days time which is obviously not certain.
How would folk feel if Corbyn came out today and made a speech about May's personal and political funding/ arming of Saudi Wahhabism?

I've watched it again and I honestly can't see anything wrong with her speech. I'm not sure where she is making any assumptions either, just stating what we need to do as a nation. It sounds exactly the sort of speech I'd expect to hear from any serving PM when something like this happens.

That seems an unfair comparison too, May doesn't mention Labour or Corbyn and doesn't try to score any cheap points from what I can see.

 

[JoshBCFC]

They already control many countries. Islamic extremists. Syria and Assad are continuing to fight them off but will they hold out, who knows?



This is what bothers me with the phrase “that’s exactly what the terrorists want”.

Everyone seems to have a phrase like this but it all means “just ignore this and carry on as usual”. Quite pathetic.

The terrorists and ISIS tell you specifically what they want.

They want what is written in their holy books. Which are all quite clear – death to the disbeliever.

Listen to FAKE NEWS or listen to the left (who just want you to “carry on as normal” – everything going to plan!!) but if you want to know why Islamists do what they do, just listen to them. And read their books. It’s not cryptic or difficult. It’s death to the disbeliever.

Well if they already control countries then it's easy to be able to attack Europe. Planes and bombs. I agree, we shouldn't "just ignore this and carry on as usual" but I don't think banning all Muslims is the way to go about it. I don't really know how we should go about it. As Ian states, a lot of attacks on the West is blamed on West aggression.

I will pose the same point again: they don't want what is written in their holy books, for some reason I doubt it says "kill a bunch of innocent people because they don't have the same beliefs than you" in their holy books. And if it did, they'd want power, so they could then achieve what is written in their holy book easier.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

She can fuck right off with the regulating the internet bullshit at least.

 

[Abertawe]

I've watched it again and I honestly can't see anything wrong with her speech. I'm not sure where she is making any assumptions either, just stating what we need to do as a nation. It sounds exactly the sort of speech I'd expect to hear from any serving PM when something like this happens.

That seems an unfair comparison too, May doesn't mention Labour or Corbyn and doesn't try to score any cheap points from what I can see.

It was shameful. Despite the perverse truth that she herself has a degree of complicity she sought to exploit the issue by projecting a statement to appease the reactionary minds built up by her press baron masters. Look at the language of her statement properly because if the expected happens you're about to lose a whole lot of freedom's.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

On a totally self-indulgent level these recent attacks have been particularly horrible because they've been genuine 'that could have been me' moments. I cross Westminster Bridge every weekday morning and afternoon. I'm from Manchester and have been to the arena and Victoria Station loads of time. And I go to Borough Market all the time. My other half is in Borough Market Choir. The idea that people go out to these places as normal but never come back is difficult to get your head around.

Yeah, agree. Was drinking in Borough Market on a Saturday night only a couple of weeks ago, found out my sister and her bf were out for drinks last night in very close proximity to London Bridge. When it's somewhere you're very familiar with and can easily envisage yourself in such a situation the whole thing does take on a bit of an unreal quality I think.

 

[El Guapo]

The first priority of any government is national security. Not sure how anybody who values the safety of its people can vote Labour given Corbyn's stance on Islamic extremism. The Quran clearly justifies the killing of non-believers, oppression of women, etc. Muslims are devoted by an ideology that favours tyranny over freedom. Weak politicians and left-liberals who are conditioned by political correctness are also part of the problem. Religion of peace, nothing to do with Islam, etc.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Come on mate, she can't win can she?

Slated for coming out and giving a partisan speech which you should expect from any leader, so what if she - as PM made no speech at all? She would be criticised for that too for hiding.

I'd expect her to offer condolences and condemn the violence. But some of her rhetoric - "enough is enough" "there is far too much tolerance of extremism", the attack on "big companies who provide internet-based services" - politicises the incident in quite an unpleasant way. Even if she wasn't supposed to be electioneering it would be quite crass to use a terrorist incident as cover for agenda that will involve further curbs on civil liberties.

Not to mention the fact that she's actually been Home Secretary and PM for seven years so if there's been any sort of government-level failure, she really ought to own it!

 

[Indian Dan]

Pandora's box is open and will not now close. This isn't like 'political' terrorism where the 'terrorists' want something and eventually a negotiated settlement will be found.

We have nothing they want - except our destruction. Hand-wringing and mealy-mouthed liberal sentiments won't quell this. Corbyn's appeasement stance wouldn't even register with them.

Death to the infidel is their motto.

 

[Aber gas]

Corbyn's stance on Islamic extremism.

What's your understanding of that stance? What part of Labour's manifesto would you see changed to combat Islamic extremism?

 

[Aber gas]

Corbyn's appeasement stance wouldn't even register with them.

What's this appeasement stance you're on about?

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

The first priority of any government is national security. Not sure how anybody who values the safety of its people can vote Labour given Corbyn's stance on Islamic extremism.

What is Corbyn's stance on Islamic extremism? In Syria, he's drawn an awful amount of flack for his support (or perceived support) for the secular government and the Assad regime, as they've battled a Syrian opposition largely made up of Salafist jihadi groups. In Libya he opposed support for radical groups aiming to topple the (nominally) socialist government.

I guess the groups that could be said to be Islamic Extremists that Jeremy Corbyn could be said to have supported are Shia militants Hezbollah and Palestinian nationalists Hamas*. He's also done paid work for Iranian-state backed Press TV.

But both of those groups are aligned fairly closely with Iran (and Syria) - whereas the current strain of terrorism comes from radical strains of Sunni Islam such as Salafism and Wahhabism.

Does Corbyn deserve criticism for those links? Probably. But those links make him an explicit enemy of organisations such as ISIS and al Qaeda. By contrast, UK foreign policy has frequently aligned itself with Salafist militant groups, partly as a means of isolating and putting pressure on Iran.

 

[Abertawe]

Where's this cluster fuck that Corbyn is in any way a justifier of IS? He schooled Owen Smith for suggesting we negotiate with them.

 

[sl1k]

You get a bit creative with the truth though. The fact that these attacks are retaliations for Western intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere doesn't somehow negate the crucial religious component. It's not some sort of cosmic coincidence that many of these attacks are perpetrated by recent converts with absolutely zero connection to "their people" beyond their shared faith.

What specific role do you believe this 'religious component' plays?
An interesting article I posted in the good reads thread:
Reborn Into Terrorism
Why are so many ISIS recruits ex-cons and converts?

They attack based on their religion and their religious books. They tell you this themselves. ISIS do.

Remember this isn’t about race and it isn't all Muslims; it is Sunni Muslims that are the problem.

What books. Show me these texts.

The Quran clearly justifies the killing of non-believers, oppression of women, etc. Muslims are devoted by an ideology that favours tyranny over freedom.

Where?

Prove your statements.

 

[Indian Dan]

His general appeasement stance when faced with any sort of conflict.

Maybe he could ask his IRA pals to negotiate on his behalf.

 

[Aber gas]

His general appeasement stance when faced with any sort of conflict.

Maybe he could ask his IRA pals to negotiate on his behalf.

Why bring up the IRA? In your previous post you made the distinction between political/ Islamic violence. In fact it was the main point of your post. Where are you going with this?

 

[El Guapo]

Where?

Prove your statements.

Here's a partial list...

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority."

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Sahih Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... "I have been made victorious with terror."

Sahih Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah."

 

[Balls Of An Ox]

...Remember this isn’t about race and it isn't all Muslims; it is Sunni Muslims that are the problem.

Oh no! I'm the problem! [emoji50]


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