WWE Raw Discussion Thread

[Christian Slater]

They don't have enough people to have a four way main event, they're spread thin enough.

I've realised I'm looking forward to HHH vs Reigns the most. It can fail to be entertaining, they either have to pull a huge angle or turn out of it or it's going to be drowned on boos. Win win if you ask me. The following Raw if Reigns just wins will be must see TV.

 

[Who Needs Mourinho]

Yeah think IC is gonna be multi man again and they are going with Kalisto/Ryback for US.

New Day versus Barrett/Sheamus at road block for titles, I wonder who will get pinned in that one, spoiler - he's English. That's meant to be leading to possibly 6 man New Day/LON at mania and slowly turning new day face. I love the new day but not sure they need a face turn, think they are best as they are where they act a bit of both but slightly more heelish.

Oaf a fatal four way would be great for the title but I'm 95% sure HHH wins and we are stuck with him and Roman at Mania.

Anybody with any common sense can see it should be the other way round but obviously the WWE themselves can't.

 

[Luke]

I tell you which match is most intriguing for me at the moment and it is Shane/Taker because it still doesn't make much sense why Taker would want to win pretty much for Vince. You had Shane saying all the right things Monday night about talent getting pushed that shouldn't be etc so that makes you want him to win but do you really want Taker to lose, it's very odd and intriguing in the sense of how it will pan out.

They don't have enough people to have a four way main event, they're spread thin enough.

I've realised I'm looking forward to HHH vs Reigns the most. It can fail to be entertaining, they either have to pull a huge angle or turn out of it or it's going to be drowned on boos. Win win if you ask me. The following Raw if Reigns just wins will be must see TV.

Very true but I'm convinced Roman coming out as champion is still the plan with no major angles. Saying that not many if anyone expected Seth to cash in last year so who knows.

Anybody with any common sense can see it should be the other way round but obviously the WWE themselves can't.

Correct.

 

[Saddlerrad]

I can't help but think that WWE have missed out a trick by not going with Shane vs HHH. They have all the history, the story, the background, a real blur between real life and storyline. Unless that's where they are heading with the summer in mind? It just seems like a waste of Undertaker and a waste of Shane's return to stick him in a match that's effetively plucked completely out of thin air, has no background, no story - it's happening for no good reason, other than to give Wrestlemania and the fans another Undertaker match.

Shane running Raw, HHH running NXT....THE INVASION X2.

 

[Christian Slater]

I can't help but think that WWE have missed out a trick by not going with Shane vs HHH. They have all the history, the story, the background, a real blur between real life and storyline. Unless that's where they are heading with the summer in mind? It just seems like a waste of Undertaker and a waste of Shane's return to stick him in a match that's effetively plucked completely out of thin air, has no background, no story - it's happening for no good reason, other than to give Wrestlemania and the fans another Undertaker match.

Shane running Raw, HHH running NXT....THE INVASION X2.

I have an idea for something good, but it's a bit out there:

Shane beats 'Taker, however he manages it, leaving Vince desperate. Vince screws HHH, turning Reigns heel in the main event.

The next night on Raw Reigns declares himself a Smackdown exclusive star, meaning Raw has no champion appearing on it.

There's many options to advance from there, but it turns Reigns heel, HHH and Steph can go away for a bit, Vince has a semblance of power and Smackdown is being reestablished.

 

[Christian Slater]

Just finished listening to WOR, Meltzer reported that Vince threw a huge tantrum in front of everyone backstage due to the crowd reactions. He's officially the old man telling everyone to get off his lawn.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I have an idea for something good, but it's a bit out there: Shane beats 'Taker, however he manages it, leaving Vince desperate. Vince screws HHH, turning Reigns heel in the main event. The next night on Raw Reigns declares himself a Smackdown exclusive star, meaning Raw has no champion appearing on it.

I suspect that may be too convoluted for their tastes, but what you suggest does tie into something that intrigues me about Shane's first promo, which is why he specified Raw in the stipulation. Currently there is no brand split and the Authority rides roughshod over both Raw and Smackdown, so why ask for control of just one show? Why not ask for overall control? This is why I asked about the possibility of a brand split a few weeks back. If Shane wins at WM then he gets Raw, but the Authority would still have Smackdown.

Just finished listening to WOR, Meltzer reported that Vince threw a huge tantrum in front of everyone backstage due to the crowd reactions. He's officially the old man telling everyone to get off his lawn.

I reckon most of the problems on the creative side are attributable to Vince (a) not understanding his audience, and/or (b) refusing to accept that the relationship between the audience and the show has irreversibly changed.

Back in 1984 or thereabouts, Vince could have probably taken any guy on the roster and made him a popular and profitable star. There were well established ways of getting people over and adherence to those would usually produce the desired result. The audience was excited to be there and played the part of expected of it. Folk cheered the babyface and booed the heel, in much the same way that I cheer the hero and boo the villain when I take my daughter to the Christmas panto.

But it doesn't work like that anymore. The people who started watching in the 1980s grew up. The internet happened. WCW, which used to keep WWF honest, collapsed. So now we have a situation in which a large section of the audience is well informed and incredibly jaded. More significantly, you have an audience that sees itself as a force that can influence the creative direction of the show. Vince no longer enjoys godlike power over his creation. The audience constitutes a force in his little world that he can't control.

You can't make the audience like someone now. Well, you can, but you can't do it using the old methods. You have a much savvier audience, one that can see the strings being pulled and which is hostile to the idea that they are being told what to like. If you want to have one of those classic feel good moments at WM (babyface wins the title, confetti comes down from the roof, everyone happy, etc.) then you have to work with the crowd, not against them. You have to go with a guy like Daniel Bryan, someone who has built up a genuine connection with the fans. You can't just pick the most photogenic guy on the roster, use mid-1980s booking tactics and expect to engineer a moment like that. That is to assume a creative power that bookers no longer have.

One of the reasons why I'm generally quite down on WWE is that I don't see this changing in Vince's lifetime. He's old. He's stubborn. The lack of effective competition means he's still making money, which allows him to inhabit a reality in which he appears to know what he's doing. He's the main problem, though. Has been for years.

 

[Libertine]

Bang on really. But on the flip side it gets irritating when some of the smarks are just as stubborn and just try and shit all over everything because LOLZ. They're in a tricky position trying to balance that mainstream appeal with what appeals to the hardcore fanbase. The WM main event is going to be very interesting/awkward. Reigns got quite heavy boos this week after being away for weeks.

 

[Christian Slater]

Their booking of Reigns has been baffling. Prime example being at the Rumble where he was being stretchered out, got up and walked to the back. His fucking title was on the line!

Now look at Ambrose. He gets thrown through a car windshield, returns in an ambulance and tells the baddest man in the company to fuck off.

 

[Simmo]

For me....being old(ish), having watched WWF in the hogan/savage days and then revelling in the attitude era, WWE now just seems weak in so many ways.

Stars like the rock, HHH, taker, austin etc were true entertainers and crowd pleasers, even if they were heel. Now they all just seem stale and uninteresting, which i think is why the crowd fails to take to many of them.

I think WWE knows this, and is why we see so many random appearances by stars from the old era, because the fans relate to them more.

I still catch up on RAW, smackdown though i couldnt give a monkeys about.

I think HHH will beat Reigns at WM, dont think Reigns is ready yet, whilst he looks the part, his mic work is terrible and he lacks any sort of charisma most of the time.

 

[Christian Slater]

Other than a great Styles vs Owens match this was a bag of wank. They're shit scared for any more injuries in fairness, but this is on par with the tug-of-war fiasco last year.

 

[Luke]

Fair comment above.

Not sure about New Day turning totally face, think they are better and more entertaining as heels.

See there are reports flying about the brand split...

The WWE marketing department has created new graphics and material for the USA Network for use after WrestleMania and it suggests another brand split may be on the horizon. Pictured on the Raw side are John Cena, Kevin Owens, Nikki Bella, Bray Wyatt, Alberto Del Rio and Charlotte. On the Smackdown graphic are Roman Reigns, Dean Ambrose, Dolph Zigger, Paige and New Day.

Is the current roster big enough for a brand split?! I just don't see it happening.

 

[Who Needs Mourinho]

Fair comment above.

Not sure about New Day turning totally face, think they are better and more entertaining as heels.

See there are reports flying about the brand split...



Is the current roster big enough for a brand split?! I just don't see it happening.

Not if they carry on with a 3 hour Raw it isn't.

 

[mase]

AJ Styles may be the best seller in the business imo.

Ambrose is pretty good too of course.

 

[Libertine]

Brand split might be interesting for a short while but'd probably run its course quite quickly. Risky move with the 3 hour Raw as said above. Certainly don't wanna see two top titles again.

 

[Christian Slater]

I think I've mentioned before, the only reservation I have with a brand split is the internal politicking that undermined and ruined it last time. Smackdown was beating Raw, so the Raw crew did what they could to hurt Smackdown. I think the idea was to create competition but it turned into sabotage. That ultimately hurt both shows. I have seen nothing from the pettiness that is still prevalent that'd suggest it'd be any different now.

 

[Oaf]

HAHAHAHAHA.

So. This newest stipulation in the Shane/Taker match... while I still can't wait for what will surely be an incredible match, it's the stupidest thing yet in a match built around stupid things.

So... if Taker loses, Vince says it's his last WM match.
But... if Taker loses, Shane takes control instead of Vince.
So if Taker loses, Vince doesn't have the power to make sure it's Takers last WM match, Shane does.

So if Taker loses, the person who will no longer be in power says Taker can't fight at WM in the future, even though he won't have the authority to make that decision if Taker loses.

 

[T.A]

Think this will be the worst WM in the past decade.

 

[Oaf]

That's what everybody said about last years and it seems to generally be accepted now as the best in the last decade. Nobody wanted Reigns/Lesnar (ended up being, in my opinion, the best WM main event since WM 26 with HBK/Taker... and not just because of the incredible ending), everybody said Wyatt vs Taker wouldn't work, Sting vs Triple H was random and the wrong move...

But they surely can't fail with some of what they have set up. Shane vs Taker is bound to entertain, Ambrose and Lesnar should be superb, ladder matches are always fun at the very least, we've got what looks set to be the best women's match in a long, long time at WM and even though nobody seems hyped for Reigns/Triple H, they're two men with a heck of a great record for delivering when in main event situations so they can surprise people.

I mean, I could be wrong, it may well suck. But there is so much potential for greatness too. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

I think I've mentioned before, the only reservation I have with a brand split is the internal politicking that undermined and ruined it last time. Smackdown was beating Raw, so the Raw crew did what they could to hurt Smackdown. I think the idea was to create competition but it turned into sabotage. That ultimately hurt both shows. I have seen nothing from the pettiness that is still prevalent that'd suggest it'd be any different now.

Brand split never worked for same reason invasion didn't work or the New blood/Millionairres club didn't work in WCW or why the MEM collapsed in end in TNA................no one really knows how you can end it without really hurting half of your roster.

you in easier words are going to suggest one lot are superior to another lot.

does create some exciting moments, but you really do have to know which people you want over at the end of it before it begins.........on all the other occasions it frankly never got over the people it needed to.

 

[Christian Slater]

Brand split never worked for same reason invasion didn't work or the New blood/Millionairres club didn't work in WCW or why the MEM collapsed in end in TNA................no one really knows how you can end it without really hurting half of your roster.

you in easier words are going to suggest one lot are superior to another lot.

does create some exciting moments, but you really do have to know which people you want over at the end of it before it begins.........on all the other occasions it frankly never got over the people it needed to.

Groups should always collapse from the inside. Creating an internal conflict where a star is born is the ultimate goal of faction warfare, in my view.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Pro-wrestling is a bit like a zero sum game. For one guy to gain something, another guy has to lose something. To make one guy look strong, a whole bunch of people have to look weaker. That's just how pro-wrestling works. It has a certain creative arithmetic (for want of a better phrase) that limits bookers, writers, etc. It's why only a handful of performers can be booked strongly in one promotion at any one time.

A lot of self-proclaimed 'smarks' don't get this, or don't appear to. They want Ziggler to be pushed. They want Owens to be pushed. They want Ambrose to be pushed. And Rollins. And Styles. And Cesaro. And Balor. And Zayn. And Wyatt. And any other favourite they may have. Their big picture is one in which 6-8 midcard guys are being pushed to the next level, all at the same time. It's a nonsense. It just can't be done.

If nothing else, a brand split allows you to create two promotions out of one; and the main advantage of that, from a creative PoV, is you can push more guys at the same time. WWE would benefit from that. The most common objection is there aren't enough stars to justify the split, but that's possibly looking at the whole thing arse backwards. Potential stars can only become bona fide stars if they are given opportunities, and booking WWE as a single promotion is needlessly limiting those opportunities. You don't need enough stars to justify the second promotion. You need the second promotion to create the stars.

Think of it this way: If Smackdown was effectively booked as a second promotion, they could experiment with Dean Ambrose as the top babyface. At the moment, he has to tread water in the upper midcard (like so many guys before him) because Vince wants Roman in that top spot. A brand split would allow them to continue with project Roman while also creating a space in which they can experiment with a Plan B, Plan C, etc.

I'm not saying a brand split is a panecea. The creative problems run much deeper. For the record, I fully expect them to cock it up. But the basic idea could work for them. Their roster is thin on stars but absolutely stacked with talent. The more creative space they can create, the better.

 

[Christian Slater]

Great post, Cap'n.

I'm giving up dirtsheets, podcasts and discussing wrestling on forums after 'Mania. I've thought for a while that my enjoyment is being stifled somewhat with knowing what the plans are, who's about to debut, who's in the doghouse etc. I want to see if watching WWE purely on a show-to-show basis is more enjoyable that way. Fuck knows if I'll last, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Christian Slater]

Good go-home Raw.

HHH has thrown everything there is in a heel's arsenal to try and get heat in his feud and it just didn't work. It was never going to work and the harder they tried the worse it got. They've surely got to give up on the Reigns experiment.

 

[Libertine]

Good go-home Raw.

HHH has thrown everything there is in a heel's arsenal to try and get heat in his feud and it just didn't work. It was never going to work and the harder they tried the worse it got. They've surely got to give up on the Reigns experiment.

Reigns said something interesting about Rock's involvement this Sunday in an interview recently. Plus Dwayne and HHH have been bigging each other up over Twitter over the past couple of days. Most likely thing is no doubt Dwayne coming out to help Roman win though like the Rumble to try counter the boos.

 

[Christian Slater]

Reigns said something interesting about Rock's involvement this Sunday in an interview recently. Plus Dwayne and HHH have been bigging each other up over Twitter over the past couple of days. Most likely thing is no doubt Dwayne coming out to help Roman win though like the Rumble to try counter the boos.

I don't think Rock will appreciate being booed again.Roman could have Stone Cold, Undertaker, HBK and the Freebirds in his corner and he'd still be booed.

I think Rock will be featured with New Day.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I'm giving up dirtsheets, podcasts and discussing wrestling on forums after 'Mania. I've thought for a while that my enjoyment is being stifled somewhat with knowing what the plans are, who's about to debut, who's in the doghouse, etc.

Ditch the podcasts. 99.9% of them, professional or amateur, are just tedious vanity projects. And, as you allude to, the few that are worth listening to (I used to enjoy Jon Pollock's stuff on LAW) are problematic because they're catering to an audience that would rather be in the know that in suspense. The risk of spoilers is very high.

Forums are harder to give up. It's quite difficult to enjoy pro-wrestling in isolation. It's just part and parcel of being a fan to fantasy book, moan about terrible creative, etc. And that's an inherently social thing. If you have friends you can talk about wrestling with, great. But a lot of pro-wrestling fans don't because of the stigmas attached. Hence the number of forums, I guess.

Give it a try, for sure. Pro-wrestling should be enjoyed, and if you think immersing yourself in the IWC and consuming certain types of media is diminishing your enjoyment, you should at least try giving them a wide berth. All I'll say is that I think this sub-forum ain't half bad. It could be busier, but it's not too spoiler-heavy and it's one of the few spaces in the IWC in which people seem able to disagree without being insufferable cocks to each other. Be sure to check in from time to time.

 

[RavenBish]

Weird build-up this year and I'm intrigued to see how it goes down - the last couple of years they've responded massively to fan opinion and I think they seem to be ignoring that this year, which I don't disagree with (because the Reigns hate is just a bit bizarre now). You just hope they get their booking right, as I think it could go either way. I don't think the card is bad at all - although I'm still extremely salty about wasting Styles against Jericho and Kalisto against Ryback. It's just about booking, is Shane v Taker gonna be a spotfest tour de force? It kind of needs to be ridiculous ala Sting/HHH in order to work. You need a twist with Reigns/HHH - as much as a solid match with Reigns winning would suffice in my book, you can't close the show on something that will be hated so much and the anti-climatic, almost goading the mob type deal like Reigns just going over clean and overcoming some odds stacked against him - there has to be more to it.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Got to say, the "IWC" have begun to grind on my enjoyment of wrestling, they think they're far smarter than they are, are riduclously stubborn, don't give anything a chance to go anywhere and don't look at things on their merits. As CS alluded to, this sub-forum is actually quite good, nobody is just a massive dick for the sake of it clinging to their conspiracy theories, but a lot is absolutely toxic these days.

I don't think WWE is as bad, or does things as badly, as it's constantly made out. WM looks like it could, possibly, be good. So I am trying to go into it with a fresh outlook where I don't look at it through an overly critical lens. I enjoy films far more now I don't expect so much from them, perhaps it'll help with wrestling? I know when I watched it as a kid I never overthought it, still talked to friends about it and enjoyed it.

 

[Christian Slater]

This forum is the best I've discussed and read interesting points on. This place is going to be part of the struggle in avoiding wrestling talk. The main reason I'm doing it is spoilers, I'm sick of knowing what's coming next. I want to know if that is the main cause for a lack of interest in much of the show.

Minsterman raises an interesting point. I'm definitely overanalysing the booking of the show and the internal politics of the company rather than judging the shows in the context they're supposed to be viewed. Maybe knowing more about the way things work indelibly changes the perspective of the show. I'm hoping the less I hear of baqckstage drama the more I can invest in what's going on and wonder what's coming next.