At what point does a manager deserve the sack?

[UTS]

In a world where being a football manager is the most cut throat job in sport, where do you draw the line between a harsh sacking and a deserved departure?

Take my club as a current example (Bury) and imagine this scenario was at your club..

Manager has been in charge 3 years, and got us promotion in his second season (just). He has consistently had a large budget to work with compared to other clubs our size. We finished 16th last season despite having one of the larger budgets in the league. This season we are midtable, but are currently on a run of six losses on the trot with poor performances and poor tactics along the way.. 2 local derby games lost, two poor performances on national TV..

Would you say in this scenario the manager deserves the sack? Would it be more wise to give him more time?

There are cases where chairmen sticking by their manager during a poor spell has paid off, Lee Johnson with Barnsley for example. Lost 9 in a row, but sorted it out and ended up winning the play offs.

Any similar examples with your club? did the manager get the sack? Was it in your eyes a harsh sacking? Has sacking said manager made any difference long term?

 

[MJA]

When a manager manages a side who lose against Bury

 

[UTS]

When a manager manages a side who lose against Bury

Like Port Vale you mean?

 

[MJA]

Like Port Vale you mean?

Exactly!
Bruno OUT!!!

 

[Craig]

Paul Heckingbottom led us to playoff victory. Ta.

 

[valefan16]

Depends what Bury realistically expect? Overspending yes and constant winding up petitions show this, but whilst overspending for the size of the club there are far bigger clubs with bigger budgets so surely mid-table is average and anything above is over achievement?

Bolton are in fine form and have a budget many times bigger so no surprise at the result.

 

[Millwall_Matt]

I don't think Bury are underachieving at all, 11th is a pretty decent position for them at this stage in the season. I seriously doubt anyone (aside possibly from the OP) would have expected them to be any higher, despite their budget.

FWIW, there are half a dozen bigger and better funded teams which are below, or well below them in the table who are clearly underachieving far more than Bury: Millwall, Charlton, MK Dons, Swindon and Coventry being the most obvious. You could argue Oxford, Gillingham and Walsall are also bigger clubs and are below them in the table currently.

Despite the recent form, I'd suggest that Bury sacking their manager at this point would look like an unfair dismissal. Any one of those clubs in that first category I think could make an argument for letting their manager go and it look reasonable, albeit there doesn't seem to be much clamour for it from them that I've noticed. Certainly for ourselves, Harris still has the majority of the backing of the crowd, although it won't last long if we don't start picking up soon.

 

[Shropshire Shoe]

Don't worry UTS we are good at ending teams bad runs. We will keep Flitcroft in his job for a bit longer yet.

 

[MJA]

Does this sort of thread not just prove that football fans are a very fickle bunch? I doubt starting a thread like this would have ever entered the OP's head when Bury were sat in 2nd place with their manager picking up a manager of the month award.

That said, one noticeable thing from the games I have seen Bury involved in, would be Flitcroft's clear lack of idea what to do when things go against Bury in games. I couldn't see anything he did in the 2nd half last night to try and affect the game in a positive manner. Does this mean he deserves the sack? Not really, he took Bury to 2nd earlier in the season and certainly deserves more time to try and turn this blip in form around

 

[KetIron]

It doesn't matter what the fans think. The decision is made in the Boardroom.

 

[MJA]

It doesn't matter what the fans think. The decision is made in the Boardroom.

Supporters pressure can easily play a part in the decisions made in the boardroom though

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Does this sort of thread not just prove that football fans are a very fickle bunch? I doubt starting a thread like this would have ever entered the OP's head when Bury were sat in 2nd place with their manager picking up a manager of the month award.

That said, one noticeable thing from the games I have seen Bury involved in, would be Flitcroft's clear lack of idea what to do when things go against Bury in games. I couldn't see anything he did in the 2nd half last night to try and affect the game in a positive manner. Does this mean he deserves the sack? Not really, he took Bury to 2nd earlier in the season and certainly deserves more time to try and turn this blip in form around

Football is a very fickle business. I often wonder how much a managers actually matter. Obviously someone like Ferguson, Gradi or Wenger have had their influence on the team, but can you honestly tell me that someone who has five minutes in charge with inherited players that will often suit an inherited style can make any sort of telling mark? Bullshit.

Bury overachieved, they now underachieved, or in other words they're balancing out the statistical norm. Too many chairman are willing and too many fans are backing change based on statistically irrelevant information based on runs of luck.

 

[MJA]

Football is a very fickle business. I often wonder how much a managers actually matter. Obviously someone like Ferguson, Gradi or Wenger have had their influence on the team, but can you honestly tell me that someone who has five minutes in charge with inherited players that will often suit an inherited style can make any sort of telling mark? Bullshit.

Just look at Pep at Man City and his attempts at getting a crop of players he has practically inherited to play to his style. They are trying to do it but they are making a lot of mistakes along the way and that is ultimately costing them points but I doubt any Man City fan wants him out because they haven't won a few games

 

[Indian Dan]

We're in a similar predicament with a poor manager - 6 wins in 27 games - shit tactics, 2 seasons of wholesale injuries, failure to even consider changing style, crowds dwindling, 4th season getting knocked out the cup in the first round (probably).

Get rid of the cnut!

 

[redjed]

When Cooper left us this time last year , we had Martin Ling come in , he improved our game and postion, but Lingy,with his medical problems resigned after a month or so, so Power promoted our coach ( Luke Williams) to manager , giving him a 5 year contract , he started ok , winning 6 of his first 10 games, but since last January we have been diabolical out of last 27 games we have earned the grand total of 26 points.
We have one of the lowest playing funds in the bottom 2 divisions, our crowds are getting lower and lower, there's discord with what supporters that are still coming with booing and chants of "POWER OUT", but will WILLIAMS be sacked ..........I doubt it
Power can't afford to pay off some one with a 5 year contract, so the rumour is he will revert back to coach, ( he is a good coach) and Power would bring his mate Tim Sherwood in as manager, but the trouble is he can't join us until after Christmas, as he is still on gardening leave from Villa, with 2 nice pay packets still to come. , i really doubt that he would join us until his final pay day from Villa, as Power pays peanuts, and by that time we will be bottom and heading for league 2........... so when do you sack a manager?

 

[Indian Dan]

Tomorrow is Sherwood's one year anniversary since being sacked by Villa. Surely his garden will be finished then?

 

[Bottega Don]

Flitcroft has seemingly done a very good job at Bury. They're the best team I've seen this season and I still think they would be up in the top 6 if it wasn't for a ridiculous amount of injuries. There's no way he deserves the sack.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

And with that Zenga goes. 87 days. What the hell can he do in 87 days?

 

[T.A]

I don't really like David or his methods but I don't think he deserves to be sacked just yet . His job has been made much harder by the public pressure from the chairman by getting to the Championship in the next 2/3 years which is unrealistic at the moment. Once people are back from injury and fully fit then we can see if things will even themselves out. Our injuries and suspensions have caused disruption and we now have very little confidence in what we do. Last night was a prime example of this. I'd still be happy with a top 10 finish - intact anything better than last seasons finish of 15th?? Would be an improvement. Anything lower than that would be a cause for concern.

 

[Indian Dan]

And with that Zenga goes. 87 days. What the hell can he do in 87 days?

Go round the world with 7 days to spare

 

[redjed]

Tomorrow is Sherwood's one year anniversary since being sacked by Villa. Surely his garden will be finished then?

He has 2 more payments due to him from Villa

 

[Craig]

The only thing Flicker should be sacked for is selling Danny Rose.

 

[UTS]

I agree with above points, and from the outside looking in it seems he is doing a good job, but he isn't. Check our horrendous run of form last season and how it mirrors this one so far... Flitcroft alienates the fans, calling them disgusting deserters, has no plan B at all, tinkers when there is no need. He played one up front last night in a Derby match at home.. wouldn't have scored in a fortnight.

The injuries can only be put down to poor luck for so long also, we've genuinely had non stop injuries for about 15 months straight now, only a few occurring during matches. We train at Carrington, in theory they are the best training facilities in the league.. Flitcroft clearly has no idea to utilise these facilities.

To summarise, He has consistently failed to get the best out of decent teams, his tactics are quite frankly baffling, he alienates players and fans at will and the most frustrating is he repeats the same mistakes time after time after time.. Barnsley fans said the same things after he was sacked there.

I understand we are one of the smaller clubs in the league but it isn't a budget issue, it's stupid, unintelligent mistakes that cost us games from the management team. 3 derby games and we've not turned up for any of them.

Put it this way, if the manager of your club got sacked and Flitcroft became available, would you take him? If not, why not?

 

[Fedora Dale]

Not that we're looking to replace Sir Keith any time soon, but if he does unexpectedly get the Man U gig after Mourinho implodes , and we need a replacement, then here's how I'd rank the current L1 incumbents:
Good evening, welcome: Clarke, Ardley, Edinburgh, McCann
Competent, but not for us: Parkinson, Alexander, Wilder
Not convinced by: McCall, Page, Rosler, Ribeiro
Who are ye: Hurst, Venus, Williams, Whitney, Robinson
Living on past glories: Slade, Harris, Brown, Wilson
Will bugger off to a bigger club at the first opportunity: Appleton
Other end of bargepole: Barker, Flitcroft

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Just look at Pep at Man City and his attempts at getting a crop of players he has practically inherited to play to his style. They are trying to do it but they are making a lot of mistakes along the way and that is ultimately costing them points but I doubt any Man City fan wants him out because they haven't won a few games

Manchester City fans don't want him out because:

They're top
He's been there four minutes
He's Pep Guardiola

Not sure how any of this can be applied to Bury.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Football is a very fickle business. I often wonder how much a managers actually matter. Obviously someone like Ferguson, Gradi or Wenger have had their influence on the team, but can you honestly tell me that someone who has five minutes in charge with inherited players that will often suit an inherited style can make any sort of telling mark? Bullshit.

That theory can be applied to players just as much. If Messi or Suarez leave a team then the team would noticeably suffer.

Meanwhile, we dismantled more than half of a promotion winning team and we are essentially not much better or worse for it because most players here are interchangeable. The difference is magnified at the top.

They aren't given enough time, for sure, but managers are very important to a successful team.

 

[MJA]

Manchester City fans don't want him out because:

They're top
He's been there four minutes
He's Pep Guardiola

Not sure how any of this can be applied to Bury.

So you think city fans would be crying about Pep if they were outside of the top 4? I doubt those with any common sense would as they will understand that he needs time to bed his style and philosophy in

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

So you think city fans would be crying about Pep if they were outside of the top 4? I doubt those with any common sense would as they will understand that he needs time to bed his style and philosophy in

Textbook technique for arguing on the internet - make up something, pretend I said it, then disagree with it.

No, I don't think that. You can tell I don't think that because I said 'he's been here four minutes' and 'he's Pep Guardiola'. Both still apply in the situation you hypothesised.

 

[MJA]

Textbook technique for arguing on the internet - make up something, pretend I said it, then disagree with it.

No, I don't think that. You can tell I don't think that because I said 'he's been here four minutes' and 'he's Pep Guardiola'. Both still apply in the situation you hypothesised.

You are clearly far too intelligent for me so I will leave this 'argument' well alone

 

[Muzzle]

City fans are as fickle as most football fans, it is as simple as that. Results and league position dictate whether a manager goes, unless you have a chairman who thinks they can do a better job, and then anything goes in that situation