Explosion at Manchester Arena

[Stevencc]

Why do these guys always carry ID.

To make sure they are personally credited with the attack.

 

[silkyman]

There needs to be serious change in this country. Starting with a complete ban on any Muslims entering the country at all.

That'll stop people born in this country.

Good call. Well done.

 

[Benji]

There needs to be serious change in this country. Starting with a complete ban on any Muslims entering the country at all, all faith schools to be closed, mosques to be severely limited and have members of our security forces present to hear everything that is said. Severe measures need to be taken under severe circumstances and that's exactly the situation we find ourselves in. The government and politicians have got to take charge and sort this out instead of shitting themselves and letting them do whatever they want. The extreme option is the British public taking it into there own hands which last night when I first heard sounded good to me but we don't want that really or we just carry on as we are and keep letting this happen over and over and fucking over again.

Gonna be confusing for the British Muslims to pick a side in your vigilante fantasy.

 

[blademan89]

That'll stop people born in this country.

Good call. Well done.

Any more , nothing can do about ones already here

 

[T.A]

There needs to be serious change in this country. Starting with a complete ban on any Muslims entering the country at all, all faith schools to be closed, mosques to be severely limited and have members of our security forces present to hear everything that is said. Severe measures need to be taken under severe circumstances and that's exactly the situation we find ourselves in. The government and politicians have got to take charge and sort this out instead of shitting themselves and letting them do whatever they want. The extreme option is the British public taking it into there own hands which last night when I first heard sounded good to me but we don't want that really or we just carry on as we are and keep letting this happen over and over and fucking over again.

You do know that IS use social media sites etc to preach hate to one another and organise attacks right? These people are in a minority they just happen to share the same religion and what do we do about the people who want to cause damage that are already here?

 

[JaseTheVillain]

You do know that IS use social media sites etc to preach hate to one another and organise attacks right? These people are in a minority they just happen to share the same religion and what do we do about the people who want to cause damage that are already here?

We hang them of course!

 

[blademan89]

Gonna be confusing for the British Muslims to pick a side in your vigilante fantasy.

I said that's an extreme option we don't really want. Fuck it lets just carry on as we are keep letting it happen and doing fuck all about it. Maybe some of you might change you're opinions if it happens to someone you know. New laws for anyone on the watchlist. Years in prison are required for for even being associated with terrorist groups

 

[blademan89]

You do know that IS use social media sites etc to preach hate to one another and organise attacks right? These people are in a minority they just happen to share the same religion and what do we do about the people who want to cause damage that are already here?

I'm just suggesting ideas that may help I don't have the answer for that one. Bit by bit as long as it takes there can be things done to help

 

[blademan89]

We hang them of course!

You are the type why this country Is fucked. Shall we carry on as we are then and just accept it?

 

[JaseTheVillain]

You are the type why this country Is fucked. Shall we carry on as we are then and just accept it?

No, I think we should start a 10th crusade.

 

[blademan89]

No, I think we should start a 10th crusade.

Seriously do you have any ideas to try and stop it or should we just accept it? One of those things ain't it you'll be saying next.

 

[HertsWolf]

There needs to be serious change in this country. Starting with a complete ban on any Muslims entering the country at all, all faith schools to be closed, mosques to be severely limited and have members of our security forces present to hear everything that is said. Severe measures need to be taken under severe circumstances and that's exactly the situation we find ourselves in. The government and politicians have got to take charge and sort this out instead of shitting themselves and letting them do whatever they want. The extreme option is the British public taking it into there own hands which last night when I first heard sounded good to me but we don't want that really or we just carry on as we are and keep letting this happen over and over and fucking over again.

Could we make them wear a special symbol on their clothes, maybe? And live in special areas with walls around them?
Presumably you will ban CoE faith schools? And what about Roman Catholic schools?
How do you ban Muslims entering a country? Some kind of crude 'test'?

You are actually doing what the terrorists want: marginalising and isolating the Muslim community, much the same way many on the right wanted to marginalise and isolate the Irish community in the 1970s for the IRA atrocities.

 

[HertsWolf]

You are the type why this country Is fucked. Shall we carry on as we are then and just accept it?

No he isn't and this country isn't fucked. We have the highest standard of living in history, and we are healthier, better educated, have better transport, economic and social opportunities and better representation.

This country - and much of Europe - has faced adversity before and will face it in the future. But solutions come from rational, logical thought rather than lashing out in fear and anger. Many Muslims are just as confused and frightened as any other element of society, and having people single them out by stereotyping them as 'bad' based on their faith doesn't help them, or us.

 

[blademan89]

Maybe my ideas are wrong but I'm trying to think of something at leadt. the rest of you all seem happy to just accept it. Like I say maybe you will change you're mind if someone you know gets caught up in an attack. Seriously what the fuck would you're thoughts be now if you're 8 year old daughter had just been murdered. Would it still be one of those things that happen that we should accept.

 

[silkyman]

Any more , nothing can do about ones already here

So far every (I think) attack in this country has been perpetrated by someone born in the UK, and one from Jamaica.

'BAN ALL MUSLIMS' is nothing but racism.

 

[HertsWolf]

Maybe my ideas are wrong but I'm trying to think of something at leadt. the rest of you all seem happy to just accept it. Like I say maybe you will change you're mind if someone you know gets caught up in an attack. Seriously what the fuck would you're thoughts be now if you're 8 year old daughter had just been murdered. Would it still be one of those things that happen that we should accept.

I don't think anybody accepts it. It's just that people are upset and grieving and more concerned with supporting the families and friends of those who were killed, maimed or just caught up in last night's terrible events. And when they have finished being concerned for them, they will turn their attention to support for the emergency services, Arena staff, nearby residents, taxi drivers, hospital staff, tea ladies, charity workers who were also part of the events and may now also face nightmares and mental stress.

We don't have to solve the world's problems immediately, and there is probably still much to learn about what happened and what to do next.

Maybe stop aggressively attacking others and just think?

 

[silkyman]

Maybe my ideas are wrong but I'm trying to think of something at leadt. the rest of you all seem happy to just accept it. Like I say maybe you will change you're mind if someone you know gets caught up in an attack. Seriously what the fuck would you're thoughts be now if you're 8 year old daughter had just been murdered. Would it still be one of those things that happen that we should accept.

Who the fuck is saying we 'accept' it? I'm just saying that banning muslims would do fuck all, because they are locally born.

 

[.V.]

I don't disagree V but would like to see something being done, even as a temporary measure while things are reassessed.
Personally, and I totally appreciate these vermin are a minute minority, I think we have to encourage the enormous majority to protect the general population, be that majority Christian, Muslim, Sikh or atheist. I feel the answer has to come from within the muslim faith. If that's not PC, I apologise.
Is it allowed for a muslim to inform on another? I don't know enough of their beliefs, which is probably ignorance on my part. All I do know is I have friends and work colleagues who are devout followers of the muslim faith who are as appalled as us today as the huge majority are.

I have a lot of time for you mate, but The Telegraph is reporting that the c*** who carried out such a terrible act was born in Manchester.

Closing our boarders or 'extreme vetting' does nothing to solve the problem, and works as a recruitment tool for ISIS and their disgusting ilk. Creating divisions based on religion will not solve the extremist problem.

 

[blademan89]

So far every (I think) attack in this country has been perpetrated by someone born in the UK, and one from Jamaica.

'BAN ALL MUSLIMS' is nothing but racism.

Wether there born here or not they are muslims that's a fact. I could be born in fucking new Zealand id still be English just as they are still from whatever Muslim country they originate. I knew it wouldn't be long before the standard racist comment got aimed my way. Absolute fucking joke some people

 

[blademan89]

Who the fuck is saying we 'accept' it? I'm just saying that banning muslims would do fuck all, because they are locally born.

And I said my ideas might be wrong but I'm just trying to think of some way to try and stop it. Banning all social media would be the best thing ever too. Do you have any ideas to try and stop it?

 

[Ciderup]

I have a lot of time for you mate, but The Telegraph is reporting that the c*** who carried out such a terrible act was born in Manchester.

Closing out boarders or 'extreme vetting' does nothing to solve the problem, and works as a recruitment tool for ISIS and their disgusting ilk. Creating divisions based on religion will not solve the extremist problem.

Fair comment V. I don't pretend to know the answer, not at all. I would rather do something than nothing though. I can't believe that other people didn't know what he was up to, be they relatives, friends or associates. Regardless of race or religion, I do feel that any potential solution has to involve everyone so that those that did know would be more comfortable coming forward. Maybe I've put it across badly, I don't know.

 

[Stringy]

It's hard to stomach but in my view there is very little that can be done to combat terrorism.

If a terrorist is willing to commit an atrocity then it matters not one iota what you do in response. You cannot reason with a person who is already willing to commit these acts.

What is there to gain from a harsh response other than alienating others and creating more terrorists? Continuing education and continuing tolerance is the only path.

 

[T.A]

Maybe my ideas are wrong but I'm trying to think of something at leadt. the rest of you all seem happy to just accept it. Like I say maybe you will change you're mind if someone you know gets caught up in an attack. Seriously what the fuck would you're thoughts be now if you're 8 year old daughter had just been murdered. Would it still be one of those things that happen that we should accept.

No one in this country is accepting what has happened, the worst thing to do though is act on emotion which is where these ideas come from every time an attack like this happens. Closing down mosques isn't going to solve the problem. People can still make bombs and talk in a different language in their own property's - when was any bomb making equipment found in a mosque or any other religious building? That won't stop people planning attacks.

 

[HertsWolf]

And I said my ideas might be wrong but I'm just trying to think of some way to try and stop it. Banning all social media would be the best thing ever too. Do you have any ideas to try and stop it?

....given that you don't....

 

[JaseTheVillain]

I knew it wouldn't be long before the standard racist comment got aimed my way. Absolute fucking joke some people

I can't possibly think why...

There needs to be serious change in this country. Starting with a complete ban on any Muslims entering the country at all, all faith schools to be closed, mosques to be severely limited and have members of our security forces present to hear everything that is said. Severe measures need to be taken under severe circumstances and that's exactly the situation we find ourselves in. The government and politicians have got to take charge and sort this out instead of shitting themselves and letting them do whatever they want. The extreme option is the British public taking it into there own hands which last night when I first heard sounded good to me but we don't want that really or we just carry on as we are and keep letting this happen over and over and fucking over again.

 

[Big Bird]

The problem is clearly already here. The number of sleeper cells and individuals determined to strike at some point must be huge.

I remember thinking a while ago that these attacks were inevitable. For every thwarted attack there will always be one that goes under the radar. Takes one guy to end the lives of many. It's impossible to track each and every individual.

What I'd like us to do is pay anyone on this 'watch list' a visit now and then to make them aware that we aren't going to just wait for them to act.

The 'watch' list needs to become more of an 'act' list so we at least stand some chance of getting ahead of the game rather than always arriving after the event.

 

[Alty]

Details of the attacker haven't been released as far as I'm aware. Maybe have a couple of hours off before trumpeting how great Prevent is (it's fucking horrendous).

If you want something to read in the meantime on the causes and motivations behind home-grown terrorism and how it intersects with extreme religious and political views and how it intersects with state violence and control, you can do worse than read The Muslims Are Coming by Arun Kundnani.

I don't have the time or inclination to quote large chunks of it at you this morning.

I've forgotten the password for my Apple ID like a plank but when I get a new one the next two audio books I'll try to get hold of are the one you recommend and Douglas Murray's new one. Always useful to get a range of perspectives.

I don't really want to get into a lengthy debate about Prevent in particular. All I will say is that the idea it's a means to spy on and discriminate against the Muslim community is just weird given a quarter of Prevent referrals relate to the far-right/white supremacism.

What I was really driving at in my earlier post, which was an attempt to preempt some of the predictable crap that has unsurprisingly been posted since, is that "ban all Muslims" is not the answer to stopping these attacks (and even if it was it'd represent a massive opportunity cost given how valuable many Muslim immigrants are to this country). Nor is trotting out the same old vacuous lines about "fighting hate with love" or Islam definitively being a religion of peace which violent madmen just happen to use as a cover.

There's a theological element to this. Bad ideas (violent Islamofascism) need to be challenged and beaten by good ones (British democracy). A starting point is actually acknowledging the nature of the problem. I think for the most part all sections of British society are getting better at this. People are rediscovering their courage after a decade or two of paralysis as people feared being called racist. But there are still those who claim the primary reasons for these attacks are British foreign and domestic policies. An absolutely extraordinary assertion I've seen very little convincing evidence to support.

 

[blademan89]

....given that you don't....

I do they just may not be right

 

[HertsWolf]

It's hard to stomach but in my view there is very little that can be done to combat terrorism.

I hate to agree with this because it seems so defeatist, but you may be right. If it all escalates into an inter-faith war on a wider scale, we all stand to lose so much more.

If a terrorist is willing to commit an atrocity then it matters not one iota what you do in response. You cannot reason with a person who is already willing to commit these acts.

However, we need to look at how to stop people becoming so alienated that they become terrorists. This isn't easy because, without the heavy military or repressive action demanded, it will seem to many (and I can probably name a few in this forum) that it is capitulating or letting them "win".
On the other hand, there is no doubt that many are persecuted in predominantly Muslim countries, and our tolerance in Europe (and the States) is not reciprocated through large parts of the world. I say this as someone who has had to attend church services in secret in both the Middle East and China. To many on the right, they hear just silence from these Middle Eastern, African and Asian countries when there are atrocities; this plays into the hands of our own extremists who want bans, deportations, dramatic sweeping solutions.
I feel there needs to be respect and tolerance of us and our cultures (not just Christian but also Hindu, Buddhist and atheist) in predominantly Muslim countries; without that respect, the calls for draconian retaliation is only likely to increase in our society.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

"Suicide bomber" being named as "22-year-old Salman Abedi. Manchester born, to Libyan parents". Who came to the UK as "refugees fleeing Gaddafi regime". Abedi was "thought to be known to police and security services".

Sources: BBC, Telegraph, Guardian all reporting this stuff now.

Incredibly depressing to know that someone Manchester born and raised could cause such distress to his own city.