Match Day Liverpool v Man Utd, Monday 17th October 20:00

[Nilsson]

Hard to believe the players at Chelsea (last season) and United now would give the same impression (especially as he's criticised many of them publicly).

He criticised his players publicly during his first spell at Chelsea, too. I think you read too much into this. Check out this article by Jamie Carragher on the subject if haven't already, I found it very insightful http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ar...-players-public-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-did-it.html

The season before last his Chelsea team had what was generally regarded as having the best team spirit in the league. I'm not sure one awful season means he isn't capable of creating such an atmosphere again.

It's very early days at for him United, we've been up and down in terms of performances and results but there are quite a few players here who he doesn't seem to fancy and I'm excited to see the squad he builds here. It was never going to be a quick fix after three years of mediocrity.

 

[smat]

He criticised his players publicly during his first spell at Chelsea, too. I think you read too much into this. Check out this article by Jamie Carragher on the subject if haven't already, I found it very insightful http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ar...-players-public-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-did-it.html

The season before last his Chelsea team had what was generally regarded as having the best team spirit in the league. I'm not sure one awful season means he isn't capable of creating such an atmosphere again.

It's very early days at for him United, we've been up and down in terms of performances and results but there are quite a few players here who he doesn't seem to fancy and I'm excited to see the squad he builds here. It was never going to be a quick fix after three years of mediocrity.

I read that article a few weeks ago, and I thought at the time that Carragher was sort of bemoaning how much young players are pampered these days, and how you can't criticise them anymore. Which is fine, but if we take that assumption as the truth, say Shaw etc are too precious, then it sort of suggests to me that the problem is Jose's. If players' attitudes have changed and Jose's methods aren't working anymore, then it's him who needs to adapt the way he works, because he's not going to change the character of 23 adult men. Changing the personnel to build a squad of uncharacteristically thick-skinned footballers, who also happen to be very good, would be a long and arduous task and, let's face it, an unrealistic one.

It's true that Jose did criticise his players every now and then at Chelsea, but we're seven league games in and he's rebuked Shaw, Mkhitaryan and Lingard already. I can't be bothered to do the research but I'm pretty sure this is unusual for him.

Carragher also says Fergie used to criticise his players. He was at United for 26 years. Of course there are going to be examples of him criticising his players. But he was much more famous for doing all sorts to take the heat off their performances. "Typical Germans"-type comments, blanking the BBC, the siege mentality thing. Didn't he also blame the kit once? It was as integral to his brand as calling Pagnell a beige *whatever* is to mine. So I don't really get his point there. (acknowledge you didn't bring that up tho)

I can't argue with the 2014-15 Chelsea team having a very strong team spirit. There was still a core of Jose's 2004-07 team there, which is likely to have helped. What came after that title win was an absolute catastrophe, and his new players must be aware of all that. Who knows, maybe they're even a little wary of him?

It is very early days, but three years of mediocrity has only been you finishing 7th, 4th and 5th. He's not been asked to turn Bournemouth into title challengers, and he's spent £150,000,000 and signed Zlatan Ibrahimovic. It's been an underwhelming start, especially as he historically starts like a train. What were you expecting from him this season and what would you consider a failure? (Question open to estimable Stevencc as well).

 

[Stevencc]

Thank you for the opportunity to answer the question, Smat.

I expected us to finish in the top four as an absolute minimum while flirting with a title challenge with City eventually proving to be too strong for us and taking it.

A failure would be finishing outside of the top four.

 

[Pagnell]

I never wear beige.

 

[smat]

Thank you for the opportunity to answer the question, Smat.

I expected us to finish in the top four as an absolute minimum while flirting with a title challenge with City eventually proving to be too strong for us and taking it.

A failure would be finishing outside of the top four.

Even that, to me, would suggest an acceptance that Mourinho's powers have waned. I believe Arsenal used to get laughed at on here for considering fourth place anything except an unambitious disaster. I thought Jose was supposed to be a winner? Never did I think I would see an ambassador for United such as Stevencc himself hoping for such meagre returns.

Fair enough though, I do actually agree. I think top three would be fine, and presumably one of the cup competitions too.

 

[Stevencc]

Even that, to me, would suggest an acceptance that Mourinho's powers have waned. I believe Arsenal used to get laughed at on here for considering fourth place anything except an unambitious disaster. I thought Jose was supposed to be a winner? Never did I think I would see an ambassador for United such as Stevencc himself hoping for such meagre returns.

Fair enough though, I do actually agree. I think top three would be fine, and presumably one of the cup competitions too.

God himself couldn't win the league title with 2016 Wayne Rooney stinking up the place let alone being captain, in my very humble opinion.

 

[smat]

God himself couldn't win the league title with 2016 Wayne Rooney stinking up the place let alone being captain, in my very humble opinion.

He'll never get the chance unless United sell to Arsenal.

 

[Kyle Hatch]

What Jose did with Chelsea 2nd time round is most united expectations. Be in a title race but probably not win, in the first season, getting champions league football. Then pushing on season 2 to win the title. It's ambitious but you pay the money for that ambition.

If year 2 comes off, then year 3 would look for a proper tilt at the champions league, while retaining the title.

I'm not saying this will happen, but that's the realistic ambitions for most united fans. The league is different now, it's more competitive because teams aren't as good as they were previously.

anyway,

Liverpool 2 - 0 United. Work still in progress and it pains me to say, but i think Liverpool will win this one. Tough period of games for United. Fene at home will be a must win, especially with a tough trip to chelsea and the cup against city to come, lose all 4 and it'll be called 'Crisis' time again for united.

 

[SALTIRE]

You'll score from a set-piece guaranteed.

 

[Christian Slater]

Hopefully a pen.

 

[epic73]

A Zlatan pen.

 

[G-Dragon]

A corner for United is like pen.

 

[mistermagic]

What an absolute travesty that this game is being played on a Monday evening. The media is shameless.

4 wins on the bounce for Liverpool is looking good. I think it'll be a bore though with Mourinho parking the bus and getting an undeserved goal à la John O'Shea ca 2007.

Liverpool 0 Manchester United 1

 

[Stevencc]

Klopp said that Rooney is a "world class player" in his press conference.

And they say that Germans don't have a sense of humour.

 

[Bilo]

Five pages and still more than two days to go. Reminiscent of 2008/09.

Any way to retrieve that 4-1 thread lads?

 

[Christian Slater]

Five pages and still more than two days to go. Reminiscent of 2008/09.

Any way to retrieve that 4-1 thread lads?

Why? All the PL match day threads on this site between our teams are just fine.

 

[sl1k]

I read that article a few weeks ago, and I thought at the time that Carragher was sort of bemoaning how much young players are pampered these days, and how you can't criticise them anymore. Which is fine, but if we take that assumption as the truth, say Shaw etc are too precious, then it sort of suggests to me that the problem is Jose's. If players' attitudes have changed and Jose's methods aren't working anymore, then it's him who needs to adapt the way he works, because he's not going to change the character of 23 adult men. Changing the personnel to build a squad of uncharacteristically thick-skinned footballers, who also happen to be very good, would be a long and arduous task and, let's face it, an unrealistic one.

It's true that Jose did criticise his players every now and then at Chelsea, but we're seven league games in and he's rebuked Shaw, Mkhitaryan and Lingard already. I can't be bothered to do the research but I'm pretty sure this is unusual for him.

Carragher also says Fergie used to criticise his players. He was at United for 26 years. Of course there are going to be examples of him criticising his players. But he was much more famous for doing all sorts to take the heat off their performances. "Typical Germans"-type comments, blanking the BBC, the siege mentality thing. Didn't he also blame the kit once? It was as integral to his brand as calling Pagnell a beige *whatever* is to mine. So I don't really get his point there. (acknowledge you didn't bring that up tho)

I can't argue with the 2014-15 Chelsea team having a very strong team spirit. There was still a core of Jose's 2004-07 team there, which is likely to have helped. What came after that title win was an absolute catastrophe, and his new players must be aware of all that. Who knows, maybe they're even a little wary of him?

It is very early days, but three years of mediocrity has only been you finishing 7th, 4th and 5th. He's not been asked to turn Bournemouth into title challengers, and he's spent £150,000,000 and signed Zlatan Ibrahimovic. It's been an underwhelming start, especially as he historically starts like a train. What were you expecting from him this season and what would you consider a failure? (Question open to estimable Stevencc as well).

Would like to chime in if the right honourable gentlemen would give way.

Having probably watched 95% of United games since many a years, I've witnessed several transitional phases in the team. One of Fergie's great strengths was how he motivated individual players and sustained an impregnable team spirit. Everyone believed in what they were doing and believed in each other (you need the former for the latter), evident in the sheer number of late equalisers/winners United scored during his reign. It translates to a discipline, a standard of excellence that everyone expects of each other. These aren't qualities you'd associate with United teams (not anywhere near consistently enough, anyway) since Fergie's departure and it's for a plethora of reasons. But mediocrity became the norm. I watched far too many games with players fucking up simple passes, lazy movement, no urgency or desire. Players coming in and out of games, even the ones that statistically carried the team - which itself is a pretty damning indictment. It was unacceptable. This is the team he inherited so I don't blame him at all for shaking things up a bit, they needed a kick up the back side.

Also, those expecting smooth sailing (not that you did) because Jose 'knows the league' and we signed 4 players for a billion quid, in an unbalanced squad with holes all over the pitch, are either deliberately negligent of the facts or are terribly misinformed in how football works in real life. Our transfer policy has been absolute turd. It'll take more than a window to address weak areas of the squad and shape it to his system, but I expect nothing less than a top 3 finish. Retaining the FA cup would be a nice touch.

 

[Pagnell]

Win this 4-0 and we go top. It's fucking on!

 

[smat]

Would like to chime in if the right honourable gentlemen would give way.

Having probably watched 95% of United games since many a years, I've witnessed several transitional phases in the team. One of Fergie's great strengths was how he motivated individual players and sustained an impregnable team spirit. Everyone believed in what they were doing and believed in each other (you need the former for the latter), evident in the sheer number of late equalisers/winners United scored during his reign. It translates to a discipline, a standard of excellence that everyone expects of each other. These aren't qualities you'd associate with United teams (not anywhere near consistently enough, anyway) since Fergie's departure and it's for a plethora of reasons. But mediocrity became the norm. I watched far too many games with players fucking up simple passes, lazy movement, no urgency or desire. Players coming in and out of games, even the ones that statistically carried the team - which itself is a pretty damning indictment. It was unacceptable. This is the team he inherited so I don't blame him at all for shaking things up a bit, they needed a kick up the back side.

Also, those expecting smooth sailing (not that you did) because Jose 'knows the league' and we signed 4 players for a billion quid, in an unbalanced squad with holes all over the pitch, are either deliberately negligent of the facts or are terribly misinformed in how football works in real life. Our transfer policy has been absolute turd. It'll take more than a window to address weak areas of the squad and shape it to his system, but I expect nothing less than a top 3 finish. Retaining the FA cup would be a nice touch.

Thank you. I honour and respect your opinions.

I don't think Van Gaal was a very good United manager or anything, but imo it's very convenient revisionism to assert that the players didn't try under him, or that he somehow held them to lower standards than he should have. This is one of the most decorated managers in European football. Your players certainly looked like they wanted to win the FA Cup, and knew what they had to do to do so.

Time will tell, won't it, whether Jose can bring that standard back. It bears repeating that he never used to struggle early on.

 

[G-Dragon]

Spurs City Everton all drop points...looks like our chance of winning is even lower now.

 

[SALTIRE]

Win this 4-0 and we go top. It's fucking on!

Or 5 - 1, as we will concede!

 

[Bilo]

Spurs City Everton all drop points...looks like our chance of winning is even lower now.

Yep, barely worth watching this.

 

[johnnytodd]

UTD have the better players and I'd expect them to win comfortably.

2-0 and I think they go above penaltypool......

 

[sl1k]

Thank you. I honour and respect your opinions.

I don't think Van Gaal was a very good United manager or anything, but imo it's very convenient revisionism to assert that the players didn't try under him, or that he somehow held them to lower standards than he should have. This is one of the most decorated managers in European football. Your players certainly looked like they wanted to win the FA Cup, and knew what they had to do to do so.

Time will tell, won't it, whether Jose can bring that standard back. It bears repeating that he never used to struggle early on.

As I do yours, good friend.

In response to the points you made -particularly the standards a top European manager would hold - I will link you to a sky sports article from back in December 2015. But first, let me set the crime scene.

If there is a period that most epitomises the 'one step forward two steps back' cliche that was van gaal's reign, it was then. Second season with the team, persevering with the same rigid style of football that was scraping through games (with the odd good game or two admittedly), somehow 1 point off top spot in the PL at the end of November. We are later [embarrassingly] knocked out of the of the CL in the group stages, after previous ultra defensive displays and poor results in the comp.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...an-gaal-says-there-is-no-guarantee-of-success

Spoiler: And then go on this run

This was it. The peak and fall of the season in the space of a month, I'd be lying to you if I thought "well there's the fa cup at least!". Pressers get more and more ludicrous with the excuses, fans shouting "attack attack attack" most weeks at home.

Imvho, it's difficult to imagine how morale and drive/motivation would not be an issue.

If I may take a page out of your book,

All the best.

 

[Stevencc]

UTD have the better players and I'd expect them to win comfortably.

2-0 and I think they go above penaltypool......

Alan Smith put this forward as his combined United/Liverpool XI...

De Gea
Clyne Bailly Smalling Milner
Henderson Pogba
Mane Lallana Coutinho
Firmino

...and Saltire and G-Dragon still swan around saying the media is against them.

Silly, isn't it Johnny?

 

[SALTIRE]

Alan Smith put this forward as his combined United/Liverpool XI...

De Gea
Clyne Bailly Smalling Milner
Henderson Pogba
Mane Lallana Coutinho
Firmino

...and Saltire and G-Dragon still swan around saying the media is against them.

Silly, isn't it Johnny?

Do you really not have a LB better than our adopted midfielder and Mr Versatility, the one, the only, Jamez Milner! ?!

 

[Stevencc]

Not according to the media mate!

 

[G-Dragon]

FA will look into Jose Mourinho comments on Anthony Taylor, after Manchester United boss says it will be difficult for the ref to perform in Liverpool clash at Anfield.

Desperate one.

 

[Stevencc]

I'd like to think he won't bow to the pressure but I doubt he will be giving us any 50/50 decisions after the outcry in the media about his appointment. The Anfield crowd will be baying for blood every time he raises the whistle to his lips in United's favour.

 

[johnnytodd]

Desperate Liverpool already looking for help from the officials.....i think they are scared they are about to get a pummeling and the inevitable slip down the league will follow....another positive being the plastic fans will do their autumnal disappearing act.